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Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag - Page 8  

post #71 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

Turns out, MouseTester can capture/intercept in-game mouse data as well (even in raw input mode). Here is one sample:



Variance increased to up to a whole milisecond (1 missed complete interval) and ~500 microseconds at the extremes. This is without sound events present (except for ambient noise). To test for the impact of sound events you would need to have people firing weapons while you do the swipe. I guess I can set up BOTs to do that, will do further testing some other time. Energy setting was on balanced with speedstep enabled, default 1ms clock resolution, CS in high priority mode. Just so I can keep things consistent for further tests.

This is so much better, given that this would be more of a circumstance that could really happen where someone might care about their mouse movement more. Joining a FFA Deathmatch server in cs, ALWAYS has sounds playing, quite a few of them in fact. Since this works in game, it should be easy to do in a busy server. Results could be much higher, and more often with 30 different sounds coming from different locations in a map.
post #72 of 258
For comparison, here is a measurement with the playback device disabled:



I realize that the sample size is way too small to make definite conclusions about the impact of sound components on polling behaviour, that's why I hope more people will try and test their systems.
Leave all your settings how you normally have them, just do the tests with a few different setups: csgo cvar "volume 1" with enabled audio device, "volume 0" with enabled audio device, disabled audio device (disabling in the playback device settings should be sufficient, maybe there's even less performance strain when you disable the audio device in the BIOS and kill the AudioSrv service though).

I will try and create a sound-intensive environment for further tests. With online servers the thing is that you have the ethernet controller activity, potentially another performance beast that could mess with the results. Comparative results should still be possible of course (online server with audio device enabled vs. disabled), but I will keep my tests offline for now.
post #73 of 258
I didn't understand what you all are saying but this;
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevinf View Post

A lot of the complaints in this thread are from people without high sense mice or don't report their computer specs. a high polling rate mouse WILL be different than standard mice.

Asus Xonar DS PCI for instance caused all sorts of weird behaviors on my HTPC running Windows 7. PRIME 95 reports CPU errors ONLY with that card installed @ STOCK! Plus loads of random
bluescreens and whatnot, all went away after removing that card.

So @r0ach's post can be credible. That said, i do prefer quantitative measurements over qualitative such as yours. Numbers!


so is not the sound card, is the mice;

you guys trying to play online games with 1 dollar target mouse??
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post #74 of 258
The problem with threads like these is that they don't account for human perception at all. Human perception on this scale runs out at about 5-8ms. Anything below that is virtually impossible to notice. That means any sort of "jittering" of mouse movement due to sound or any other system input that will strain the CPU is virtually impossible to "feel". There are some crappy mouse sensors out there that have terrible tracking, and unfortunately, that tracking deviation is amplified by other services running on your computer. That's probably the reason why some people claim to have problems that they think are related to this issue.

For reference: 8ms = about 120fps

In reality, a sound card and subsequent drivers have a tiny amount of overhead on CPU usage, which is virtually impossible to detect on modern multi-core/multi-threaded systems. If you think the Sound Card drivers have overhead, you should see the kind of overhead a GPU driver pulls from the CPU. Does that affect mouse movement? Of course it does. In fact, it's really noticeable once you get down to around 30 FPS. That's when you really start to feel the effects of input lag and that's why most people on these forums use high-powered GPUs for gaming.

The OP also once posted a thread about his eVGA GTX 970 throttling under use. Instead of going ahead and fixing it by using a program such as Precision or Afterburner to turn up the power and temp limit, he was DEMANDING that eVGA make a BIOS fix to the issue... He didn't like the fact that Precision or Afterburner add CPU overhead to gaming.

Honestly, this sounds like the same issue spoken about a different component. I can't feel it anything that he described in the original OP and subsequent posts, and I've had my fair share of mice and video cards. I've never once felt this issue while gaming, and most other consumers will not either.

Like I said, it's all about perception. wink.gif
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post #75 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

How can you be "on the fence" about it? I mean, nobody is denying that sound components are a performance factor, right? That in turn affects how well the entire system can handle game and I/O tasks. The question is if there's even a way to reduce the demand of audio processing. We should start to flesh things out and get people to test stuff. I will do further tests, but here's an example:

All that of course if you are "hardcore" about (mouse) performance. Otherwise you could just P'n'P and not criticise people for wanting to tinker with stuff like this, ha.

Never made that claim, your words. I've said I don't even notice the Sensei being an issue, I must not be that "hardcore". I'm on the fence because I do not perceptively notice it, nor do I play worse using a Sensei vs. IE3.0 or whatever Laser vs. Optical example you want to choose.

Nor am I criticizing, simply sharing evidence why 192/24 isn't beneficiary.
If anything, I'm agreeing with argument of using 44.1/16 to maximize performance because again, especially whilst gaming, 192/24 is useless.
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post #76 of 258
@ Scharfschutzen

Sorry if I made that last part sound like I was referring specifically to you - I wasn't. I'm also not saying everybody will feel a difference with different sound cards etc., it just seemed like people were denying the possibility of sound cards affecting the PC performance altogether.

@ Mad Pistol

I get what you are saying, but I bet you yourself know what kind of controversial ground you are getting on with human frames of reference. For example, 8ms sounds incredibly low and still impressive to most, but that goes against the intuition of people here that know how noticeable the difference of 125Hz vs 1kHz in mouse polling is.

And however hard determining a "human threshold" is to begin with, from your time here you will also know that some people tweak this stuff to be technically satisified more so than getting a "real" effect out of it. I guess you could say an average player on a modern system will hardly notice the polling interval disruptions or freezes that are in the microsecond range, but DPC latency often shows that those freezes spike into the miliseconds, as does polling variance apparently. And we can test for ways to optimize systems to a point where at least those spikes are prevented.

Optimally, we would just go hardcore mode and play without sound because we prioritize consistent performance. biggrin.gif Unfortunately sound is too important an aspect in most games.
post #77 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

The problem with threads like these is that they don't account for human perception at all. Human perception on this scale runs out at about 5-8ms. Anything below that is virtually impossible to notice. That means any sort of "jittering" of mouse movement due to sound or any other system input that will strain the CPU is virtually impossible to "feel". There are some crappy mouse sensors out there that have terrible tracking, and unfortunately, that tracking deviation is amplified by other services running on your computer. That's probably the reason why some people claim to have problems that they think are related to this issue.

For reference: 8ms = about 120fps

In reality, a sound card and subsequent drivers have a tiny amount of overhead on CPU usage, which is virtually impossible to detect on modern multi-core/multi-threaded systems. If you think the Sound Card drivers have overhead, you should see the kind of overhead a GPU driver pulls from the CPU. Does that affect mouse movement? Of course it does. In fact, it's really noticeable once you get down to around 30 FPS. That's when you really start to feel the effects of input lag and that's why most people on these forums use high-powered GPUs for gaming.

The OP also once posted a thread about his eVGA GTX 970 throttling under use. Instead of going ahead and fixing it by using a program such as Precision or Afterburner to turn up the power and temp limit, he was DEMANDING that eVGA make a BIOS fix to the issue... He didn't like the fact that Precision or Afterburner add CPU overhead to gaming.

Honestly, this sounds like the same issue spoken about a different component. I can't feel it anything that he described in the original OP and subsequent posts, and I've had my fair share of mice and video cards. I've never once felt this issue while gaming, and most other consumers will not either.

Like I said, it's all about perception. wink.gif

lol, this is like the "the human eye can't see more than 30fps" argument.
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post #78 of 258
Ok ok I know it's been asked about external AMPs and DAC, but what about the DRIVERLESS O2 Headphone AMP+DAC? It doesn't require anything be installed, it just works without drivers. It appears as Generic USB Audio.

Also, how big is the difference in general between 16 and 24 bit depth. I ask because there's an awful hiss/buzz with 16 bit, but with 24 bit there is a pretty low noise floor (not inaudible but not annoying like 16). As for 96000Hz vs 48000Hz or even 41000Hz I can't hear even the slightest difference no matter how cosmically enlightened I am. This is probably because I've had severe tinnitus since birth though.
post #79 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

Maybe in the end the only thing we can really do is get better CPUs, disable halt states, clock stepping and core parking, use high performance energy modes and maybe use TimerTool as well or go back to 500Hz. In short, general performance tweaks to increase the likeliness of the processor being able to maintain poll intervals during audio/video rendering strain.
Same for DPC latency. Maybe there are no audio drivers that are not a main culprit there. We can only disable all sound devices we don't use and in general reduce DPC latency.

You can disable the Power service in Windows completely in Windows 8/8.1. I've already got everything set to max performance anyways in Windows and the BIOS.

Other then that wouldn't it make sense for developers to simply code games to prioritize I/O of mousemovement more?

To anyone who owns a Xonar, I advise you to run the Unified drivers with the low DPC setting. It might not have helped for r0ach (who still needs to get a new motherboard imo), but it helped drop my DPC latency on idle from 100 ish to 10 or below (that and many other things but I couldn't get it that low with the default ASUS driver).

Essence ST, the PCI (not express) variant.

The biggest left over DPC culprits now on my system (and most likely the same for alot of other people) are network or GPU driver related.

Also, I always read alot of tweaks for regedit about the Multimedia Class Scheduler Service on the internet or gaming forums... stop doing those tweaks, just remove the Audio service dependency and disable MMCSS all together.
Edited by CorruptBE - 1/16/15 at 11:41am
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post #80 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trull View Post

lol, this is like the "the human eye can't see more than 30fps" argument.

There is a pretty big difference between saying a human eye can't see more than 30 fps, and saying that a sound card driver that adds a tiny 1% usage to your CPU isn't effecting your mouse polling (which lies on an entirely different subsystem, btw, and itself only uses at very most with 1000hz polling a small 10% or less of a single core) to any significant degree.

What we are talking about here is more like saying humans can't detect the difference between 600fps and 800fps when both are being displayed on a panel that can only really transition pixels at 144hz.
Edited by Zero4549 - 1/16/15 at 11:36am
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