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Windows audio stack sucks, anything higher than stereo 16 bit 44.1k has higher cursor lag - Page 9  

post #81 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieboyeli View Post

Ok ok I know it's been asked about external AMPs and DAC, but what about the DRIVERLESS O2 Headphone AMP+DAC? It doesn't require anything be installed, it just works without drivers. It appears as Generic USB Audio.

Also, how big is the difference in general between 16 and 24 bit depth. I ask because there's an awful hiss/buzz with 16 bit, but with 24 bit there is a pretty low noise floor (not inaudible but not annoying like 16). As for 96000Hz vs 48000Hz or even 41000Hz I can't hear even the slightest difference no matter how cosmically enlightened I am. This is probably because I've had severe tinnitus since birth though.

AFAIK, Generic USB Audio just means it utilizes a Windows default driver. I. e. all the ressource-heavy stuff should still be going on inside the system. USB DACs in general were more or less disregarded in the context of reducing the effect sound components have specifically on your mouse. Your mouse uses USB as well, so it doesn't sound good to have something as complex and data-heavy as audio occupy the same interface.
But go ahead and do your own tests! I'm interested to see what the polling behaviour looks like with a USB DAC. A possible tweak would be to get your DAC to be registered on a different USB controller than your mouse.

Also wanted to mention that while this topic may seem very niche, the big investments being made these days in the gaming world all deal with new forms of low-latency input and consistent visual/auditive experiences. The virtual reality industry naturally relies on making things realistic - microstuttering/microfreezes, input latency, audio latency etc. are all things those industries deal with dedicatedly. Occulus in their own words "are working on audio as aggressively as they are working on the vision side. They have a whole team ramped up" [sic!].
Edited by HAGGARD - 1/16/15 at 11:45am
post #82 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by shatterboxd3 View Post

What we are talking about here is more like saying humans can't detect the difference between 600fps and 800fps when both are being displayed on a panel that can only really transition pixels at 144hz.

I also think there's a big difference between "how good we can see fast things" and "how good we can perceive things that are out-of-sync".

Wouldn't surprise me if you installed something that caused like 10 ms of delay in a Jet Fighter's pilot controls IRL he would notice rather quickly that something "is off".
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post #83 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptBE View Post

I also think there's a big difference between "how good we can see fast things" and "how good we can perceive things that are out-of-sync".

Wouldn't surprise me if you installed something that caused like 10 ms of delay in a Jet Fighter's pilot controls IRL he would notice rather quickly that something "is off".

I think you might have messed up your quote here, was Zero you quoted.

I agree that in a situation like that, they would notice. But how would we notice microseconds when our fastest monitors only show us updates at 7ms intervals? Even at half a millisecond?

If the effects of the soundcard drivers were 10ms, sure as heck we would notice it. Just as most people would notice 10ms more delay if it was on top of their normal mouse movement, it would feel "off"
post #84 of 258
Butterfly effect?

X Microseconds delay on device Y stalls device Q for X Microseconds indirectly as well, which in turn causes X + X delay for device Q.

Most likely more complicated then that but my common sense seems to gear to something aching to this. In this case device Q is our mouse, something which we consider a priority.

I toned down network latency related issues by... actually not tweaking my PC tongue.gif I just maintain my home network and occasionally check with Wireshark for any "unnecessary" packages. I had alot of ARP request by a Printer for instance (like really alot for no apparant reason).

Less traffic resulted in less DPC, etc.
Edited by CorruptBE - 1/16/15 at 12:10pm
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post #85 of 258
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptBE View Post

Butterfly effect?

X Microseconds delay on device Y stalls device Q for X Microseconds indirectly as well, which in turn causes X + X delay for device Q.

Most likely more complicated then that but my common sense seems to gear to something aching to this. In this case device Q is our mouse, something which we consider a priority.

I toned down network latency related issues by... actually not tweaking my PC tongue.gif I just maintain my home network and occasionally check with Wireshark for any "unnecessary" packages. I had alot of ARP request by a Printer for instance (like really alot for no apparant reason).

Less traffic resulted in less DPC, etc.

The butterfly effect exists, but only on a very small scale: that’s what we have skipped clock cycles and loss of integrity for. Think of it as Internet radio: over an hour listening to it you will get a few seconds (minutes) behind of what’s actually on the stream and resync eventually (or when you miss a few packets). The process will lose some integrity inside the piece, but the whole thing will keep relatively accurate. Now take this hour and shrink it into a fraction of a second. So you get skipped frames and sound artifacts instead of a gradual but constant slowdown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAGGARD View Post

AFAIK, Generic USB Audio just means it utilizes a Windows default driver. I. e. all the ressource-heavy stuff should still be going on inside the system. USB DACs in general were more or less disregarded in the context of reducing the effect sound components have specifically on your mouse. Your mouse uses USB as well, so it doesn't sound good to have something as complex and data-heavy as audio occupy the same interface.
But go ahead and do your own tests! I'm interested to see what the polling behaviour looks like with a USB DAC. A possible tweak would be to get your DAC to be registered on a different USB controller than your mouse.

Also wanted to mention that while this topic may seem very niche, the big investments being made these days in the gaming world all deal with new forms of low-latency input and consistent visual/auditive experiences. The virtual reality industry naturally relies on making things realistic - microstuttering/microfreezes, input latency, audio latency etc. are all things those industries deal with dedicatedly. Occulus in their own words "are working on audio as aggressively as they are working on the vision side. They have a whole team ramped up" [sic!].

Yes, I might want to actually make some measurements and put them in this thread once Xonar U7 arrives.
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post #86 of 258
Roach has a weird hobby. That's about all I can say. I am all about doing reasonable things to have a better, more comfortable mousing experience. My end goal of course is to get as good as possible at my games of choice. At the end of the day, I know that the people who are the best in the world at these games don't care even as much I do, not even to mention how much less they care than someone like Roach does.

Ultimately, what is the end I am aiming for? How much random stuff am I willing to do for the sake of "perfect input" that wont make me better at the games, and can't even be proved make input more perfect in the first place? I read this, and I think it must be a troll thread. I can't imagine that there is honestly someone out there constantly installing and reinstalling different drivers and BIOS configurations all the for the sake of completely subjective "feel." Who would do this without bothering to collect a shred of actual data?
post #87 of 258
I really don't know whats going on with this thread

I actually download the "mouse test" soft and I got "perfect" in every test, so don't know what exactly to look for as I've never heard of mouse lag (that is has lag, yes it does, is normal), never feel something like that, I've never fell like my mouse don't respond to what I'm doing with it...

but I would like to get to an end out of this, either is a troll thread or have to see actual data that can confirm all of it
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post #88 of 258
Interesting read. However, I will be sticking to my DAC + AMP combo. Cannot wait to get my Schiit Bifrost later this year.
 
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post #89 of 258
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Pistol View Post

The problem with threads like these is that they don't account for human perception at all. Human perception on this scale runs out at about 5-8ms. Anything below that is virtually impossible to notice.

Oh god, this guy again. This is the same guy that didn't think it was that big of a deal that EVGA shipped the 970 FTW card with a 170 watt limit, when it takes 196w on my computer at stock boost levels. This means a constant throttle and stutter fest with GPU utilization bouncing up and down between 98-99% while other cards can hold 99% with no problem. Of course, even when I showed graphs of the GPU, he didn't believe the throttling and GPU utilization pinging was possible to cause stutter. I fixed it by editing the BIOS power limits, but anyway.

As Haggard already covered with like 3 posts, it's not just about input lag. Some of the sound card drivers and post processing settings actually do cause huge input lag, but just playing audio alone, even in best case scenario with good equipment and drivers, still seems to cause a level of system instability that affects your other components. Audio is currently one of the biggest gorillas in the room for screwing up gaming PCs, so it's obviously in people's best interests to find the most optimal setup for it.

It's ridiculously easy to tell a large difference in mouse movement and sluggishness when changing audio bitrate from 16bit 44.1k to anything higher. It happens on both the Soundblaster Z with no driver installed, using Windows UAA driver, and on a X-FI card using Creative's driver. This is an easy to test example people can try. If you can't feel the difference, you might not have arms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookieboyeli View Post

Also, how big is the difference in general between 16 and 24 bit depth. I ask because there's an awful hiss/buzz with 16 bit, but with 24 bit there is a pretty low noise floor (not inaudible but not annoying like 16). As for 96000Hz vs 48000Hz or even 41000Hz I can't hear even the slightest difference no matter how cosmically enlightened I am. This is probably because I've had severe tinnitus since birth though.

Large difference in mouse response between 16 bit 44.1k and anything higher. The higher you go, the worse the mouse is. It's like this on all 3 sound cards I own, while using either creative drivers or Microsoft UAA driver.
post #90 of 258
The difference from my Xonar DX with the UNI Xonar drivers with low DPC latency (which I'm pretty sure all it does is not initialize the ASUS Audio Center) to the Sound Blaster Z with the Windows UAA driver was huge.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the X-Fi compares to the Sound Blaster Z, and I'll just stick to the one that sounds better if there's not much of a difference. We'll see.
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