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[AU/IQ] Outrage Against Evolve DLC, Backlash Forces Developer To Respond - Page 5

post #41 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

It doesn't. This is just a lie everyone seems to be following with the "next gen" consoles; the only reason games could be seen as more expensive (vs. 10 years ago) is because of inflation or licensing agreements with MS/Sony for console release.

Take a look at Evolve:

"Next Gen engines are expensive and complex" - They licensed CryEngine - so they don't need to pay for an engine dev team, or the R&D. Yes, licensing IS less expensive; CE (supposedly) costs around $1m for the average game (probably more, this is ~2012 info); paying for a team of 10+ engine devs, shader artists, etc. for a few years adds up (engine programmers get paid a LOT). So they can't say "making next-gen possible is expensive" - engine licensing is about the same as it always has been.

"Making Next Gen assets is hard" - no, it's not. Textures? Go get Quixel, Substance painter and Zbrush, then download xNormal. These programs are all incredibly affordable, and are pretty much industry standard now. Assets? Go crazy making a high-poly asset (surprisingly easy), then a low-poly version (just make boxes that roughly fit the HP), and then use Xnormal to bake the normals. Making assets has never been easier. Every studio ever uses Autodesk XYZ (maya, 3ds, etc.) so that hasn't changed.

"Making games requires huge teams, which is expensive" - This is debatable, and on a game-per-game basis: but for Evolve, it's not true. Turtle Rock (evolve dev) has between 75-89 devs (75 in Feb 2014, 89 now according to LinkedIn). 4A games (Metro series) has around 80 people (Aug 2014). Basically, they're about the same size. Now, let's look at what each studio has done:

4A made their own engine while being an entirely unproven company, and charged $49.99 on release of their first game (which had no DLC. Their second game improved the engine and graphics, and was released at $49.99. A DLC "season pass" was $15. This DLC was the faction pack (3 missions), the Tower pack (basically a challenge/survival mission set), the Developer pack (Combat sim, shooting gallery, art "museum", Spider Lair mission) and the Chronicles pack (3 missions). So for $15, you got 7 new levels (~5 hours?) as well as a bunch of other stuff.

Turtle Rock licensed an existing and proven engine while themselves being a proven company (L4D, etc.), and charges $59.99 + paid DLC. The evolve DLC ranges from the "Hunting Season Pass" of 7 characters (3 monsters, 4 hunters) for $25, to the "Monster Expansion Pack" (1 skin, 1 monster) for $15. So total, day 1, to get all the content, you need to drop $90 (or $80 for the 'Digital Deluxe' version).

So let's recap:
4A: $49.99 game + $15 season pass, which included 7 missions (~5hrs) of fully voiced SP-story content, as well as a collection of purely gameplay-focused (no new dialogue or characters) missions.
Turtle Rock: $59.99 game + $25 season pass (7 characters) + $15 monster pack (1 character, 1 skin).

For some reason, I feel that 4A is actually trying to make a good game (while making a living), while Turtle Rock just wants bags of money.


So no, Evolve is not one of those games that cost insane amounts of money, forcing the devs/publishers to ask for more money - they are just greedy.

yessir.gif Indeed. Could not have summed it up better my self. All this justifications for DLC's prices is just ridiculous. I really want to see this behemoth that was supposedly so expensive to make that they have to charge $15 for it alone.

Honestly I can't stand the whole DLC season pass boom. Its down right sickening . I have nothing against the idea of downloadable content but it really needs to be in the form of proper expansions that actually offers an decent amount of new content an a reasonable price. Remember when an expansion meant that you get an entirely new full lenght campaign for half or even an third of the price on an actual sequel? Yeah thous where the days.
    
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post #42 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by doomlord52 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nvidia Fanboy View Post

If it really costs so much money to develop a good game nowadays, they should just raise the price to whatever they see fit and stop messing around with DLC. Just release the complete game at $80 and be done with it.

It doesn't. This is just a lie everyone seems to be following with the "next gen" consoles; the only reason games could be seen as more expensive (vs. 10 years ago) is because of inflation or licensing agreements with MS/Sony for console release.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you.... for FPS and 3D tittles, yeah, it sure does. It take a lot more man hours to make a AAA title now than it did 10 or 20 years ago. The bar keeps getting higher and higher as tech improves. I thought the 'credits' for Half Life were pretty long when it first came out. Or then HL2. Compare that to Tomb Raider now. Those credits are major motion picture sized.

Just the scope of level design alone in the last decade has greatly increased. Yeah, they can grab a cheap game engine license, but the size of games and all it's associated files have increased so has the time to create them.

Back in the day you could pump out a decent Quake level in a few days all by yourself. And then look what they did with Black Mesa... small team of guys... it took them years. Evolve looks like it'll be a good title... I guess we'll find out when the beta unlocks.

You're totally right about the greediness though. So many devs are greedy and are only in it for the money. Can't be helped.
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post #43 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post

I'm gonna have to disagree with you.... for FPS and 3D tittles, yeah, it sure does. It take a lot more man hours to make a AAA title now than it did 10 or 20 years ago. The bar keeps getting higher and higher as tech improves. I thought the 'credits' for Half Life were pretty long when it first came out. Or then HL2. Compare that to Tomb Raider now. Those credits are major motion picture sized.

Just the scope of level design alone in the last decade has greatly increased. Yeah, they can grab a cheap game engine license, but the size of games and all it's associated files have increased so has the time to create them.

Back in the day you could pump out a decent Quake level in a few days all by yourself. And then look what they did with Black Mesa... small team of guys... it took them years. Evolve looks like it'll be a good title... I guess we'll find out when the beta unlocks.

You're totally right about the greediness though. So many devs are greedy and are only in it for the money. Can't be helped.

Credits are probably a poor way to evaluate the effort required to make a game. The credits for The Witcher 1 are horrendously long (longer than some movies), but CDPR themselves have said that it was "a small team". They keep adding credits for people who weren't really involved with the game. It's not that there's more people involved - it's that they're getting credited for the tiniest things.

I'd disagree with that; while the actual detail going into games has increased, the tools have also improved dramatically. Long ago, textures were all done by hand, 3d-sculpting wasn't a thing (move those points to make a char - please no), and normals were a nightmare to make. Now there's tools for everything. Look up some ZBrush speed art - the amount of time it takes to make an incredibly detailed character is surprisingly little. Engines also handle a lot more. You can setup rules for terrain texture placement, then rules based on that for brush placement, then see lighting in real-time to see if you like the layout; no waiting for bake times of massive repetitive tasks.

You can still do that; it just takes more skill (not more time). With better tools comes an increased learning curve. You can teach anyone to use a hammer and nail to break a rock in two in about 5 minutes - but it would take years to teach them to sculpt a statue. Similarily, making a Quake level was really, really easy. You came up with an idea, made some square tunnels and rooms, added some textures (only need a diffuse) and you're good to go - anyone could figure out how to do that. Now you need to consider LOD, normals, speculars, diffuse, gloss and detail maps - it's just way more to think about. However, there are tools to do all of this. CryEngine has a built-in LOD generator - so you only need to make LOD0 (closest to player), and then engine does the rest. That many texture maps might sound tricky, but Xnormal will do your normal map, and Quixel will do the rest - that takes about 5 minutes. With the newer PBR-based systems, it's even easier. You don't need to set the reflectiveness or specular - the engine takes this into account based on various texture maps. Making the level itself is also very simple; we have auto-placement of objects, many decal projection types, scripts for almost everything... it's just really, really easy to make a level (for an MP game). The only area where I would say that it has actually become much harder is in cutscenes - those have become amazingly detailed, but also incredibly complicated.

As for Black Mesa... obviously it took a long time. It's a small group (amateur) group trying to replicated and improve upon the work of a larger, professional group - all while doing it as a side-project (they must have real jobs, etc.) entirely for free (or at least until the paid version is a thing). If they had the money to hire a group of professionals, and made it their full-time job, I'm sure it would have only taken a few years.
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post #44 of 268
Considering how poorly the game ran when I tested it, I think I'll pass.
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post #45 of 268
I'll say paid DLC should be banned if it's not free to play, expansion is a different story though.
That will prevent them from nickel and diming us.
post #46 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by t00sl0w View Post

7-15 dollars, wow.
using dev costs as an excuse to cover up greed is hilarious.
wouldn't budgeting 101 put dev costs into the already unpredictable primary game sales?
basing income on not only one level of unknown, but then a second level that is hated immensely by the community is INSANE.
and that's why its a flat out lie....no accountant would freakin let that fly.
DLC is nothing more than bonus money.

Figures Lie, and Liers figure.
post #47 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlpurvis View Post

You ask some fair questions, and honestly, this is all strictly opinion. I don't know how old you are, but I remember back in the olden days, when you bought a game, you bought a game. That was it. Everything that was included in the game was it. There was no added-DLC. If a developer wanted to add more to the game or improve upon the game a little bit, they either put that stuff into a later sequel, or they just delayed the game a few more months. Whenever you bought a game back in the day, you never felt like you were only getting a partially complete game.

Now, with the ascension of microtransactions, many gamers, can feel jilted if there is stuff considered DLC that probably should've been in the game to begin with. One glaring example of this is on-disc DLC, Day 1 DLC, and Pay to Win DLC are really bad examples. Mass Effect and Assassin's Creed, as well as just about any game from EA are very bad examples.

Good examples? Very few and far between. Skyrim's Hearthfire, Dragon Age: Origins, and Last of Us are some decent examples if you ask me. The stuff they included didn't feel like it should've been part of the original game, but instead, added to it, fleshed it out some more.

How Turtle Rock and Take 2 are handling their DLC is one of the WORST examples in recent memory. $25 for one monster? That's HALF the price of the game right there!

This really all comes down to opinion, but I for one would prefer it if the developers would just delay the games a little longer to get that extra content in there. There's a reason why the majority of the games in everyone's "best of" list never had a DLC. Many of the best games NEVER have DLC. MGS, Zelda, Mario (though this one is starting to cave to the greed).

Fair points, but you have to remember that games of yore (I've been gaming since monochrome screens) were just simply unable to have additional content. Due to the price of stamping out floppies/CDs, and relatively narrow distribution channels, additional content packs were very rare (and when they existed, they were usually low quality 3rd-party collections of "10,000 Doom levels!!"). I bet you a few developers would have released additional content if the distribution channels were as readily-available and cheap as they are now.

That is all speculation, though.

Personally, I don't have a problem with DLC as long as the game itself lives up to promises (Evolve does), it doesn't split the player base (good there as well), the DLC additions aren't entirely overpowered (impossible to know at this point), and it's priced reasonably (big fail on that front).

There will always be people who rail against DLC in all its forms, but I don't get it. Are those people saying the game would be better without any additional content at all? It's not unreasonable to imagine that if the choice were either give it for free or don't make it, 95% of studios would choose to not make it.
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post #48 of 268
Those old days when you just have to input button combinations to unlock hidden characters, costumes, etc. Now you have to pay for it instead. Thats why i'm against paid DLCs.

What we want is a legit expansion, not a bogus money grabbing DLCs.
post #49 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghostrider85 View Post

Those old days when you just have to input button combinations to unlock hidden characters, costumes, etc. Now you have to pay for it instead. Thats why i'm against paid DLCs.

What we want is a legit expansion, not a bogus money grabbing DLCs.

So you're under the assumption that if DLC weren't a thing, all of these additional content packs would be included in the base game?
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post #50 of 268
Hey Turtle Rock... Just give us Left 4 Dead # 3. It's the elephant in the room.

You guys over there at Turtle Rock can do a zombie shooter REALLY well. Its like going from what we know and love to making fruit sculptures.
We expect L4D3. What? You can't deliver? but you can give us "Evolve" /facepalm
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