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Logitech G303 Daedalus Apex Gaming Mouse - Page 447

post #4461 of 7008
How does faster shutter speed mean less light? Isnt the lumens the same?
Edited by Zenith Phantasm - 10/29/15 at 6:17pm
post #4462 of 7008
wasn't variable framerate one of the reasons laser sensors have been so heavily lampooned in the past (besides accel)?

anyhow, this mouse shape feels pretty awful to me, I definitely aim slightly better with it but if I start using it regularly (even on my laptop for non-gaming) my wrist develops a weird, constant muscular ache. I had no idea it was even possible for a mouse shape to be bad enough to make my hand hurt, I only realised it was due to the mouse when I stopped using my laptop for a little while. Since then I've tried to start using the g303 again several times and each time the same thing happens.

how can logitech make a mouse with the best sensor and clicks on the market and then goof the shell so hard? I don't get it, literally any other shape (including office mice) would have been better
Edited by phrax - 10/29/15 at 6:16pm
post #4463 of 7008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenith Phantasm View Post

How does faster shutter speed mean less light? Isnt the candescence the same?
Shutter speed controls the frame-rate. The shorter you expose your photo, the less light you get and vice versa when your aperture stays the same. Think about the digital camera example, they are effectively the same thing. Candescence?
post #4464 of 7008
Quote:
Originally Posted by trism View Post

Shutter speed controls the frame-rate. The shorter you expose your photo, the less light you get and vice versa when your aperture stays the same. Think about the digital camera example, they are effectively the same thing. Candescence?
in these sensors, the shutter speed only affects framerate when illumination is extremely poor. e.g. when you lift up the mouse.
i think i've posted oscilloscope images somewhere here... iirc a typical exposure time is 50us so it doesn't affect framerate at all, unless the sensor wants to run at >20000fps (which for current avago/pixart sensors is never the case)

and, iirc, there's no change in the exposure for the different framerate modes. i.e. the gain (think camera ISO) is the same.

what's very likely going on is there's more processing being done for the lower framerate modes since there's more time available to process the image
Quote:
Originally Posted by phrax View Post

wasn't variable framerate one of the reasons laser sensors have been so heavily lampooned in the past (besides accel)?
i don't think so
Quote:
Originally Posted by popups View Post

To me... A higher frame rate feels smoother and more responsive. A lower frame rate feels choppy. Also, diagonal tracking appears to be different depending on the frame rate.
many other variables than framerate though.
Edited by qsxcv - 10/29/15 at 6:34pm
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post #4465 of 7008
Quote:
Originally Posted by phrax View Post

wasn't variable framerate one of the reasons laser sensors have been so heavily lampooned in the past (besides accel)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

what's very likely going on is there's more processing being done for the lower framerate modes since there's more time available to process the image

i don't think so

many other variables than framerate though.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

Possible case. I didn't own a Xai long enough to confirm this.

PS: 6010 is modified variant of the older 20 pin optical architecture. (3090 in current day). VSCEL opposed to a traditional LED. The notable difference was tracking speed and cursor quality on specific surfaces.

Edit: I'm sure an "optical" A9500 could have been possible with structure changes, although A9500s implementation of VSCEL on the sensor itself cuts overall cost. Acceleration would still be present regardless of illumination. Either an architectural or firmware flaw that was looked over.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

A9500 should be very comparable to current A3090 release, though will variate by frame rate response like I mentioned in your thread. I've personally had time with a modified UGS architecture and frame rate capping at a lower value significantly changes response feel.

I also mentioned data transfer rate being a possible parameter. Capping a lower internal update value and increasing cursor precision at the sake of response.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post

Of course, I mentioned this at the start of the thread and multiple postings after, though FR is more of a side effect variable. Having used a modified FR variation (7200/12000) of UGS, I can attest to a noticeable increase of delay (7200 FR) in addition to release 9800 SROM @ 12000 FR; Something that never should have been made public and makes current 4k 3090 seem like the best thing in the world. (I kid you not)

Lets assume data flow was equal on both 6010 and 3080 (two sensors of same generation). 6010 would indeed have that benefit of extra frame rate; less "laggy".

There is certainly comparable we'll say "smoothed properties" (for sake of subject consistently) inherit to A9500 vs 4k 3090, though FR bump put it more in line with older releases in terms of general user conscience.

Ironically, having a higher FR also decreases cursor precision and consistency via specific CPI level.. Settting FR too low decreases cursor smoothness. I don't know about you, but I feel 30*30 @ 6400 FPS is really the best compromise for general performance at moderate CPI.

This is considering FR is also high enough to offer decent IPS speed as well.
post #4466 of 7008
9800 has smoothing... if the number of frames used for smoothing is held constant, lower framerate would exhibit more pronounced smoothing.

in theory, for a perfect sensor, assuming 1000hz sensor reads and usb polling, it doesn't matter whether the framerate is 1000, 2000 or 1234000, as long as it's an exact multiple of 1000. but if it isn't an exact multiple then higher is smoother
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post #4467 of 7008
"This register is used to configure the sensor frame rate. Sensor frame rate may reduce automatically (compared to the frame rate set by this register) when tracking over dark surfaces due to increasing shutter duration."

Odd that they would state like that if there was no chance of shutter ever being too long for normal frame rates. How did you measure the shutter time/on what surface specifically? It seems fine for white surfaces in their measurements. Shutter is used to keep the average pixel value in the 0-127 scale (normalization) and also the variable frame rate is related to the shutter value.
Edited by trism - 10/29/15 at 8:09pm
post #4468 of 7008
i tried on many surfaces. even a completely black mousepad (qck, black supermat, etc...) is reflective enough.
oscilloscope connected to led pins. the led duty cycle doesn't decrease pass a minimum it seems. probably related to the equivalent of the "x-sync" time for cameras

there is a chance for framerate to be limited by exposure time. as i mentioned, when you lift up the mouse
Edited by qsxcv - 10/29/15 at 8:20pm
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post #4469 of 7008
Of course but that datasheet statement implies that it can happen on dark surfaces too.
post #4470 of 7008
well you'd need something far darker than a black mousepad for that then.
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