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post #981 of 1345
We go through this every time a new flagship card comes out. Yes it's expensive but if you cant or am unwilling to buy it you now have the option to purchase the prior flagship card (gtx980) second hand at a bargain price. So why all the whining and gnashing of teeth?
post #982 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by szeged View Post

no one should by a lamborghini aventador because i cant afford one.

No, it's:

Why is the $20 000 civic now costing $40 000?

Why is every car manufacturer skyrocketing their prices on all their product tiers too?

Why am I getting a lot less for the same price, or why am I getting the same for a lot more?


No one's answered these yet.
post #983 of 1345
Seriously as much as I am against $1000 GPUs and think it's downright asinine, please go back and read this bit again and tell me if this gives you any new insights.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcde7ago View Post

You are conveniently forgetting how much competition Nvidia had at that time; the 5000 series was king, and along with the 6000 were always better value cards. I am not going to entertain the notion that the Titan X is comparable to how the GPU space/competition was years ago. The GTX 580 would have been priced significantly higher then if circumstances had allowed for it.

Hint: It takes two to tango.
post #984 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

Can you explain the skyrocketing of prices in what used to be known as the "smarter buys" tier?

Why have prices for this tier (GXX04 lineup) more than doubled?

The GTX 460 (the equivalent of 680s and 980s) used to cost $229. Now they are asking $499 and $549.

Can you explain this, or customers supposed to go even lower down the foodchain?

The reason why is simple costs have gone up and AMD is less competitive.

Those two combinations are the reasons why prices have gone up. Wafer costs themselves have basically doubled for Nvidia at 40nm vs 28nm. Nvidia had a terrific agreement in place at 40nm which allowed them to pay only for working dies. This let them make big die's for relatively cheap because there was less risk involved.

Also lesser volume in the desktop market means prices have to go up to compensate, particularly when R and D costs are going up.

Sure Nvidia has had some good quarters recently but their profit margins after paying all the bills is basically the same. The year you referenced where gtx 460's where 229 were years where Nvidia lost money. So you can't really use that 229 figure as a historical figure to base what future pricing should be at. Those years were terrible for Nvidia.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/profit_margin

Notice it has stayed around 15% besides the 2010 which is was just a bad year.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/NVIDIA_%28NVDA%29/Data/Gross_Margin

Gross margins have risen because AMD is less competitive and has allowed Nvidia to charge more but that is only one part of the equation. Margins have only risen 16% from 45 to 61%. Far less than what your 229 to 550 example implies. I will illustrate this with math.

lets take 2010 45% gross margin. If gross margins are 45% if Nvidia sells a chip for 100 dollars, it costs $55 dollars to make and they make $45. If you think Nvidia is simply pocketing that extra $321 dollars. And from your implying the cost of the chip is the same, Nvidia would be making 321 + 100 = $421 off a chip cost of 55 dollars from the previous example. That would make it a sky high 87% margins or 100 - 55/421*100%. No hardware tech company, even apple has margins this high. So why aren't margins 87%? The cost of wafers has increased 50-100% with each node shrink and the defect per wafer(the amount of unusable chips goes up) as we pack more transistors into a smaller area has also increased.

So Nvidia is making an extra 16% off of gross margins, what are they doing with it?Having better gross margins either leaves room for extra profit or room for other expenses. And that leads to R and D.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/r_and_d_expense

nvidia R and D expense have grown tremendously and it takes better gross margins to fund it.

http://www.overclockers.ru/hardnews/67477/nvidia-tratit-na-razrabotki-i-issledovaniya-tret-vyruchki.html

In fact Nvidia spends 33% of it's total revenue on R and D. The highest percentage out of all semiconductor companies. So out of that 61% from gross margins, 33% is spent on R and D which leaves 28% which 13% goes to paying marketing, administration, overhead etc leaving Nvidia with 15%. There might be some other things but growing cost of product and R and D expenses increasing(which they are allowed to do because AMD has been generally losing marketshare after the gtx 5xx series) is why the price of Nvidia cards have increased. So why is Nvidia spending so much on R and D? It helps them get ahead of AMD as this recent product cycle has shown and number 2, the graphic market is one that could disappear in 8 years from now. With things becoming more integrated with GPU's being built in, the market for discrete shrinks. Nvidia I would imagine is trying to expand its product portfolio so it is less reliant on graphic revenue. Hence why they are going into tegra and super computers so much. Like AMD, they are looking for fast growing markets that could become a revenue stream in the future.

You really have to look at the financial to get an explanation.
Edited by tajoh111 - 3/23/15 at 12:01am
post #985 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

The reason why is simple costs have gone up and AMD is less competitive.

Those two combinations are the reasons why prices have gone up. Wafer costs themselves have basically doubled for Nvidia at 40nm vs 28nm. Nvidia had a terrific agreement in place at 40nm which allowed them to pay only for working dies. This let them make big die's for relatively cheap because there was less risk involved.

Also lesser volume in the desktop market means prices have to go up to compensate, particularly when R and D costs are going up.

Sure Nvidia has had some good quarters recently but their profit margins after paying all the bills is basically the same. The year you referenced where gtx 460's where 229 were years where Nvidia lost money. So you can't really use that 229 figure as a historical figure to base what future pricing should be at. Those years were terrible for Nvidia.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/profit_margin

Notice it has stayed around 15% besides the 2010 which is was just a bad year.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/NVIDIA_%28NVDA%29/Data/Gross_Margin

Gross margins have risen because AMD is less competitive and has allowed Nvidia to charge more but that is only one part of the equation. Margins have only risen 16% from 45 to 61%. Far less than what your 229 to 550 example implies. I will illustrate this with math.

lets take 2010 45% gross margin. If gross margins are 45% if Nvidia sells a chip for 100 dollars, it costs $55 dollars to make and they make $45. If you think Nvidia is simply pocketing that extra $321 dollars. And from your implying the cost of the chip is the same, Nvidia would be making 321 + 100 = $421 off a chip cost of 55 dollars from the previous example. That would make it a sky high 87% margins or 100 - 55/421*100%. No hardware tech company, even apple has margins this high. So why aren't margins 87%? The cost of wafers has increased 50-100% with each node shrink and the defect per wafer(the amount of unusable chips goes up) as we pack more transistors into a smaller area has also increased.

So Nvidia is making an extra 16% off of gross margins, what are they doing with it?Having better gross margins either leaves room for extra profit or room for other expenses. And that leads to R and D.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/r_and_d_expense

nvidia R and D expense have grown tremendously and it takes better gross margins to fund it.

http://www.overclockers.ru/hardnews/67477/nvidia-tratit-na-razrabotki-i-issledovaniya-tret-vyruchki.html

In fact Nvidia spends 33% of it's total revenue on R and D. The highest percentage out of all semiconductor companies. So out of that 61% from gross margins, 33% is spent on R and D which leaves 28% which 13% goes to paying marketing, administration, overhead etc leaving Nvidia with 15%. There might be some other things but growing cost of product and R and D expenses increasing(which they are allowed to do because AMD has been generally losing marketshare after the gtx 5xx series) is why the price of Nvidia cards have increased. So why is Nvidia spending so much on R and D? It helps them get ahead of AMD as this recent product cycle has shown and number 2, the graphic market is one that could disappear in 8 years from now. With things becoming more integrated with GPU's being built in, the market for discrete shrinks. Nvidia I would imagine is trying to expand its product portfolio so it is less reliant on graphic revenue. Hence why they are going into tegra and super computers so much. Like AMD, they are looking for fast growing markets that could become a revenue stream in the future.

You really have to look at the financial to get an explanation.

Seriously, great post. I'll take your word that it's accurate.

But we can still vent though, right? AMD's jacked up their prices a lot, and so has Nvidia, from the top end all the way down. It's still BS.
post #986 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

No, it's:

Why is the $20 000 civic now costing $40 000?

Why is every car manufacturer skyrocketing their prices on all their product tiers too?

Why am I getting a lot less for the same price, or why am I getting the same for a lot more?


No one's answered these yet.

That's an easy answer, there's only two car manufacturers.
post #987 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tajoh111 View Post

The reason why is simple costs have gone up and AMD is less competitive.

Those two combinations are the reasons why prices have gone up. Wafer costs themselves have basically doubled for Nvidia at 40nm vs 28nm. Nvidia had a terrific agreement in place at 40nm which allowed them to pay only for working dies. This let them make big die's for relatively cheap because there was less risk involved.

Also lesser volume in the desktop market means prices have to go up to compensate, particularly when R and D costs are going up.

Sure Nvidia has had some good quarters recently but their profit margins after paying all the bills is basically the same. The year you referenced where gtx 460's where 229 were years where Nvidia lost money. So you can't really use that 229 figure as a historical figure to base what future pricing should be at. Those years were terrible for Nvidia.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/profit_margin

Notice it has stayed around 15% besides the 2010 which is was just a bad year.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/NVIDIA_%28NVDA%29/Data/Gross_Margin

Gross margins have risen because AMD is less competitive and has allowed Nvidia to charge more but that is only one part of the equation. Margins have only risen 16% from 45 to 61%. Far less than what your 229 to 550 example implies. I will illustrate this with math.

lets take 2010 45% gross margin. If gross margins are 45% if Nvidia sells a chip for 100 dollars, it costs $55 dollars to make and they make $45. If you think Nvidia is simply pocketing that extra $321 dollars. And from your implying the cost of the chip is the same, Nvidia would be making 321 + 100 = $421 off a chip cost of 55 dollars from the previous example. That would make it a sky high 87% margins or 100 - 55/421*100%. No hardware tech company, even apple has margins this high. So why aren't margins 87%? The cost of wafers has increased 50-100% with each node shrink and the defect per wafer(the amount of unusable chips goes up) as we pack more transistors into a smaller area has also increased.

So Nvidia is making an extra 16% off of gross margins, what are they doing with it?Having better gross margins either leaves room for extra profit or room for other expenses. And that leads to R and D.

https://ycharts.com/companies/NVDA/r_and_d_expense

nvidia R and D expense have grown tremendously and it takes better gross margins to fund it.

http://www.overclockers.ru/hardnews/67477/nvidia-tratit-na-razrabotki-i-issledovaniya-tret-vyruchki.html

In fact Nvidia spends 33% of it's total revenue on R and D. The highest percentage out of all semiconductor companies. So out of that 61% from gross margins, 33% is spent on R and D which leaves 28% which 13% goes to paying marketing, administration, overhead etc leaving Nvidia with 15%. There might be some other things but growing cost of product and R and D expenses increasing(which they are allowed to do because AMD has been generally losing marketshare after the gtx 5xx series) is why the price of Nvidia cards have increased. So why is Nvidia spending so much on R and D? It helps them get ahead of AMD as this recent product cycle has shown and number 2, the graphic market is one that could disappear in 8 years from now. With things becoming more integrated with GPU's being built in, the market for discrete shrinks. Nvidia I would imagine is trying to expand its product portfolio so it is less reliant on graphic revenue. Hence why they are going into tegra and super computers so much. Like AMD, they are looking for fast growing markets that could become a revenue stream in the future.

You really have to look at the financial to get an explanation.

Hats off to you for taking the time to make this post and to pull/post the numbers; this is spot on. I know it's been said in other threads that Nvidia's margins have remained relatively the same over the last few years, despite the increased costs of high-end GPUs, but it's hard for a lot of people to grasp that without numbers. I wish your post could be stickied; the amount of money Nvidia sinks into R&D is freaking monumental, and coupled with the lack of competition from AMD as of late = we get increased pricing of GPUs, but not for the express purpose of price gouging.; Nvidia's pricing has pretty much been par for the course given the exponential increase in manufacturing costs. thumb.gif
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post #988 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Read AnandTech's review on the Titan X
.
and how AnandTech know its fully enabled biggrin.gif ?
post #989 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by traxtech View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by i7monkey View Post

Early 1980s 10MB hard drive = $3398

man that picture !!! biggrin.gif
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post #990 of 1345
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozyo View Post

and how AnandTech know its fully enabled biggrin.gif ?

It's been repeated several times already that GM200 is the fully-enabled version of Maxwell. There is no more "space" left on the die to fit anymore GPCs; it has the 6 full GPCs enabled, which is 50% more ROPs, texture units and CUDA cores. The die itself is about 50% bigger than GM204/the GTX 980. If you think a "bigger" version of Maxwell is coming out as a the 980Ti or GTX 1080, you're going to be waiting forever for a card that will never come. The only way Nvidia releases another Maxwell card is by cutting down GM200 to a 6GB VRAM variant, with slightly less performance than a Titan X.

GTX 980 block diagram of GM204:



GTX Titan X block diagram of GM200:

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2x Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD (OS) 4x Crucial M4 256GB SSD 14x Corsair SP120 Quiet Edition 4x EK-RAM Monarch Module (Black) 
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