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[Various] AMD FreeSync Reviews - Page 115

post #1141 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

Yeah, I'm not bothering anymore. All the people whining about how terrible Freesync is are all the same people that would never have bought a Freesync monitor in the first place. If it says AMD on it then its crap and that's all they'll ever say about anything...

I personally waited to buy G-Sync until FreeSync hit market and showed what it was capable of. My choice of G-sync became extremely clear at that point, but that isn't the issue....

You are defending AMD and wanting people to give them some sort of credit for being "new" or acting like we are being too hard. We aren't the ones that have ran around for the last 18 months talking trash against the competing product and declaring FreeSync superior. That was AMD.

We are simply holding AMD to the standard they set for themselves in their extreme marketing campaign, nothing more.
    
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post #1142 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

I personally waited to buy G-Sync until FreeSync hit market and showed what it was capable of. My choice of G-sync became extremely clear at that point, but that isn't the issue....

You are defending AMD and wanting people to give them some sort of credit for being "new" or acting like we are being too hard. We aren't the ones that have ran around for the last 18 months talking trash against the competing product and declaring FreeSync superior. That was AMD.

We are simply holding AMD to the standard they set for themselves in their extreme marketing campaign, nothing more.

If it were just talking trash, that would be one thing. The "4GB means 4GB" campaign is a perfect example of good trash talk.

The problem is AMD was lying about G-Sync and FreeSync for over a year. And, now, when the launch actually happens, they're way behind in quality and polish.

I would be much more inclined to be charitable, to have a "eh, it'll work out in a bit" attitude, if they hadn't been so aggressively deceitful from the very start. And it's not wrong to call them out on it.
post #1143 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by CataclysmZA View Post

3) This is partly physics-related and partly related to how the display is refreshing itself. You can have the strobe match the display rate, but you'd have to implement frametime smoothing to take out any severe dips or increases in framerate, because otherwise you'll run into situations where the display dims when it runs into a low-fps situation, then suddenly increases in brightness then the framerate improves. Even with the smoothing, your display would still have varying brightness levels throughout your time gaming on it, so its not ideal. Additionally, you will run into situations where the game engine hiccups and suddenly the framerate is out of sync - then you would have the strobe light up the display when it is blank, turning itself off when there's actually a frame being drawn on the display.

I'm going to elaborate and clarify a bit on why it's hard to combine low persistence(backlight pulsing) and VRR:

It's not really a physics or electronics problem, it's a human eye problem. The human eye is extremely sensitive to changes in average brightness with respect to time, and is sensitive to flickering below about 85hz. If you combine VRR and low persistence, you need a backlight pulse extremely short at high framerates, so that it fits between two short frames. You also need to be able to jump from any framerate to any other framerate without any noticeable change in brightness.

Now, It's physically possible to do all of this with existing electronics(just hook something like an arbitrary waveform generator up to the backlight), the hard part is figuring out what waveforms will look the best, and that's not technically challenging, it's just a lot of tedious testing. You can semi-automate it. The test fixes all but one parameter of your waveform, and you just turn a knob to tweak the last one until two LEDs are the same apparent brightness, and press a button to go to the next test (or a second button when it starts flickering before you get to equal brightness). Once you have the data, you can make your VRR pulsed backlight. From there, it's a question of accounting for the quirks of your particular panel, so you can account for stuff like TN panels bleeding to white at low framerates.
Edited by TranquilTempest - 3/29/15 at 2:07pm
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post #1144 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

If it were just talking trash, that would be one thing. The "4GB means 4GB" campaign is a perfect example of good trash talk.

The problem is AMD was lying about G-Sync and FreeSync for over a year. And, now, when the launch actually happens, they're way behind in quality and polish.

I would be much more inclined to be charitable, to have a "eh, it'll work out in a bit" attitude, if they hadn't been so aggressively deceitful from the very start. And it's not wrong to call them out on it.

It just highlights the problem that AMD has had with PR and Marketing in general for a few years now. They have a terrible habit of making false claims, over-hyping their products, etc, etc. Then when delivery day comes they fall on their face. Some exception given to the GPU side of things in certain areas.
    
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post #1145 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

I'm going to elaborate and clarify a bit on why it's hard to combine low persistence(backlight pulsing) and VRR:

It's not really a physics or electronics problem, it's a human eye problem. The human eye is extremely sensitive to changes in average brightness with respect to time, and is sensitive to flickering below about 85hz. If you combine VRR and low persistence, you need a backlight pulse extremely short at high framerates, so that it fits between two short frames. You also need to be able to jump from any framerate to any other framerate without any noticeable change in brightness.

Now, It's physically possible to do all of this with existing electronics(just hook something like an arbitrary waveform generator up to the backlight), the hard part is figuring out what waveforms will look the best, and that's not technically challenging, it's just a lot of tedious testing. You can semi-automate it. The test fixes all but one parameter of your waveform, and you just turn a knob to tweak the last one until two LEDs are the same apparent brightness, and press a button to go to the next test (or a second button when it starts flickering before you get to equal brightness). Once you have the data, you can make your VRR pulsed backlight. From there, it's a question of accounting for the quirks of your particular panel, so you can account for stuff like TN panels bleeding to white at low framerates.

 

Aha, that makes it much more easier to understand than the things I was reading up on about backlight strobing. I will have to do more reading into the subject!

post #1146 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

I'm going to elaborate and clarify a bit on why it's hard to combine low persistence(backlight pulsing) and VRR:

It's not really a physics or electronics problem, it's a human eye problem. The human eye is extremely sensitive to changes in average brightness with respect to time, and is sensitive to flickering below about 85hz. If you combine VRR and low persistence, you need a backlight pulse extremely short at high framerates, so that it fits between two short frames. You also need to be able to jump from any framerate to any other framerate without any noticeable change in brightness.

Now, It's physically possible to do all of this with existing electronics(just hook something like an arbitrary waveform generator up to the backlight), the hard part is figuring out what waveforms will look the best, and that's not technically challenging, it's just a lot of tedious testing. You can semi-automate it. The test fixes all but one parameter of your waveform, and you just turn a knob to tweak the last one until two LEDs are the same apparent brightness, and press a button to go to the next test (or a second button when it starts flickering before you get to equal brightness). Once you have the data, you can make your VRR pulsed backlight. From there, it's a question of accounting for the quirks of your particular panel, so you can account for stuff like TN panels bleeding to white at low framerates.

I asked this question to Tom from Nvidia last year in September. He seemed to have known the problems with trying to do both G-Sync and ULMB.

I don't know a lot about this tech but to me in theory with what you said TranquilTempest we just need to keep the frame rate above 85hz to stop flickering. We already know that G-Sync repeat the frames when it goes too low in VRR from the PCper video this week. So I'm guessing we just need monitors with refresh rates of double 84hz so that means 168hz monitors? If Nvidia finds a panel that can go that high I guess they would try to work on getting both technologies to work together. Now the question is if Nvidia does find the way to get them working together what would AMD do. They don't have any backlight strobing technology for FreeSync.
post #1147 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by decoy11 View Post

I asked this question to Tom from Nvidia last year in September. He seemed to have known the problems with trying to do both G-Sync and ULMB.

I don't know a lot about this tech but to me in theory with what you said TranquilTempest we just need to keep the frame rate above 85hz to stop flickering. We already know that G-Sync repeat the frames when it goes too low in VRR from the PCper video this week. So I'm guessing we just need monitors with refresh rates of double 84hz so that means 168hz monitors? If Nvidia finds a panel that can go that high I guess they would try to work on getting both technologies to work together. Now the question is if Nvidia does find the way to get them working together what would AMD do. They don't have any backlight strobing technology for FreeSync.
That is not part of the specification, neither for FreeSync, nor G-Sync. It comes native on the BenQ monitor and I'm mightily surprised how no one is referring the subject even by a 10 foot pole.
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post #1148 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

That is not part of the specification, neither for FreeSync, nor G-Sync. It comes native on the BenQ monitor and I'm mightily surprised how no one is referring the subject even by a 10 foot pole.
Because like blur reduction, it doesn't work in VRR.
post #1149 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by TranquilTempest View Post

I'm going to elaborate and clarify a bit on why it's hard to combine low persistence(backlight pulsing) and VRR:

It's not really a physics or electronics problem, it's a human eye problem. The human eye is extremely sensitive to changes in average brightness with respect to time, and is sensitive to flickering below about 85hz. If you combine VRR and low persistence, you need a backlight pulse extremely short at high framerates, so that it fits between two short frames. You also need to be able to jump from any framerate to any other framerate without any noticeable change in brightness.

Now, It's physically possible to do all of this with existing electronics(just hook something like an arbitrary waveform generator up to the backlight), the hard part is figuring out what waveforms will look the best, and that's not technically challenging, it's just a lot of tedious testing. You can semi-automate it. The test fixes all but one parameter of your waveform, and you just turn a knob to tweak the last one until two LEDs are the same apparent brightness, and press a button to go to the next test (or a second button when it starts flickering before you get to equal brightness). Once you have the data, you can make your VRR pulsed backlight. From there, it's a question of accounting for the quirks of your particular panel, so you can account for stuff like TN panels bleeding to white at low framerates.

Is the technical problem that they can't get it to strobe fast enough or that they can't accurately predict the strobe length?

I agree about the perception of brightness but I thought the problem was that for VRR you don't know when the next refresh is therefore if you don't strobe for an exact length of time the perceived brightness will seem brighter/darker.

What you're saying makes sense I just don't know if it was problem A, B or both that prevents both technologies from being used at the same time.
post #1150 of 1757
I found what I was trying the phrase two posts prior why evaluating the panel at 40 Hz was illuding.
Currently, FreeSync doesn't default to the maximum refresh rate and rather keeps monitor raster scanning frequency in sync with the actual refresh rate(G-Sync>FreeSync), but that isn't a conclusive reflection of each individual panels' image trail. In fact, blur reduction by strobing offers benefit on both of these levels and succeed both FreeSync, G-Sync and Adaptive sync altogether. And the best part is that it isn't proprietary to any gpu brand. smile.gif
Quote:
"...In fact with OD at normal, the response times improve as you increase the refresh rate, from 8.7ms down to 5.9ms as you progress from 60Hz up to 144Hz refresh rate. We have seen from our earlier tests that the refresh rate seems to impact the level of overdrive applied to the liquid crystals, and so a higher refresh rate results in lower response times. You are getting a double whammy here when it comes to motion blur, with both the improved response times and higher frame rates having a positive influence on the blurring that you see."
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