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[Various] AMD FreeSync Reviews - Page 134

post #1331 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by chadamir View Post

Double and triple buffering won't work with vsync off. Doesn't Gsync keep vsync on below the window? How does freesync behave below the window when vsync is on?
With Vsync on, FreeSync panels would just judder below the window - that judder being ~50% worse than a 60Hz panel as you are operating at longer frame times at the bottom end of FreeSync VRR range. G-Sync remains in VRR below the panel's minimum, meaning the 'VRR window' of a Swift is 1-144 FPS. The VRR window of all G-Sync panels goes lower than any minimum stated in any of their specs - which are not stating the VRR range but the panel physical refresh range.
post #1332 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by malventano View Post

1. Vsync off. At the lower refresh rates it ends up looking more like tear + judder (an intermittent tear with perceptible judder on one side of the tear). At faster refreshes (like on a 60Hz panel) it's harder to perceive the judder effect that is more obvious at 40Hz. On the LG panel, the higher (48) minimum is countered by horizontal tears and judders being so much more obvious on such a horizontally wide panel.
2. Double and triple buffering doesn't fix tearing / judder. If it did, we wouldn't need VRR.
3. We have received no statements as far as I know.

2. Vsync should be fixing tearing. If it's not, something else is very wrong.
post #1333 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by malventano View Post

With Vsync on, FreeSync panels would just judder below the window - that judder being ~50% worse than a 60Hz panel as you are operating at longer frame times at the bottom end of FreeSync VRR range. G-Sync remains in VRR below the panel's minimum, meaning the 'VRR window' of a Swift is 1-144 FPS. The VRR window of all G-Sync panels goes lower than any minimum stated in any of their specs - which are not stating the VRR range but the panel physical refresh range.

Yes, but why is it juddering? Is it still only refreshing at 40hz? Maybe the difference is that on g-sync, it is using double buffering whereas on freesync, it is not and it is overriding the game which may normally have it.
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post #1334 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by malventano View Post

With Vsync on, FreeSync panels would just judder below the window - that judder being ~50% worse than a 60Hz panel as you are operating at longer frame times at the bottom end of FreeSync VRR range. G-Sync remains in VRR below the panel's minimum, meaning the 'VRR window' of a Swift is 1-144 FPS. The VRR window of all G-Sync panels goes lower than any minimum stated in any of their specs - which are not stating the VRR range but the panel physical refresh range.

I'm sorry but simply displaying the same frame over and over until the next frame is ready is NOT "staying in the VRR range". At least try to have some semblance of journalistic integrity here... rolleyes.gif
post #1335 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I'm sorry but simply displaying the same frame over and over until the next frame is ready is NOT "staying in the VRR range". At least try to have some semblance of journalistic integrity here... rolleyes.gif

But it's not "displaying the same frame over and over."

It's repeating the frame, and variably cutting short the repeated frame in sync with the new render from the GPU. So it's still variable.

To put numbers to it, if the panel's minimum is 30 Hz (maximum 33.33 ms refresh interval), and the GPU is sending out 20 FPS (50 ms frame times) then when the frame hold duration hits the 33.33 ms limit, G-Sync commands the display to refresh with a repeated frame. Then, 16.67 ms later, when the next render is complete, then G-Sync commands the display to update with the refreshed frame. That 16.67 ms frame time is what a fixed refresh of 60 Hz would generate, well within the capability of the display.

Still variable, still synced, still tear-free, still as fluid as 20 FPS can ever be.

Whereas in FreeSync, VRR just shuts off completely below the minimum refresh, and you have either vsync on or vsync off as options.

If you're going to rolleyes.gif, you should at least have some semblance of understanding of what it's actually doing.
Edited by Mand12 - 4/1/15 at 10:58am
post #1336 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

But it's not "displaying the same frame over and over."

It's doubling the refresh rate, but repeating the frame, and variably cutting short the second frame in sync with the new render from the GPU. So it's still variable.

If you're going to rolleyes.gif, you should at least have some semblance of understanding of what it's actually doing.

Correct, he obviously STILL hasn't watched the O-scope video. He doesn't know what the heck he is talking about.
post #1337 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majin SSJ Eric View Post

I'm sorry but simply displaying the same frame over and over until the next frame is ready is NOT "staying in the VRR range". At least try to have some semblance of journalistic integrity here... rolleyes.gif

Proof that instead of actually reading and watching the content you are criticizing, you are simply criticizing to do it - that is sad.

If you had actually watched the video, or understood what you watched, you would have seen that below the standard VRR window G-Sync is still active and manipulating the functions of the panel to minimize the impacts of being out of the normal VRR window.

In other words; instead of letting it all go to hell outside of the VRR window, the G-Sync process is very much active, working in double to quadruple overtime to keep things looking as nice as possible given the circumstances.
    
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post #1338 of 1757
Variable Refresh Rate ≠ Variable Frame Rate. however the two can be confused w/each other . . .


just saying.
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post #1339 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Proof that instead of actually reading and watching the content you are criticizing, you are simply criticizing to do it - that is sad.

If you had actually watched the video, or understood what you watched, you would have seen that below the standard VRR window G-Sync is still active and manipulating the functions of the panel to minimize the impacts of being out of the normal VRR window.

In other words; instead of letting it all go to hell outside of the VRR window, the G-Sync process is very much active, working in double to quadruple overtime to keep things looking as nice as possible given the circumstances.

... and does so without any need for the video card or CPU to waste any cycles (ie it is automatic).

AMD COULD, and who know, very well may, do with in a future driver release, but that would take CPU/GPU processing power, and require a new driver update every time a monitor comes out (and we all know how slow AMD is in updating their drivers).

So it is conceivably possible that AMD could do later what nVidia does now (sort of), but it would require a huge effort on their part ... and still wouldn't be as good (performance wise) and using the hardware that nVidia does.


Bottom line, FreeSync isn't no where near ready for prime time ... it is still little more than a beta test (or actually, early alpha, depending on your point of view).
post #1340 of 1757
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

AMD COULD, and who know, very well may, do with in a future driver release, but that would take CPU/GPU processing power, and require a new driver update every time a monitor comes out (and we all know how slow AMD is in updating their drivers).

So it is conceivably possible that AMD could do later what nVidia does now (sort of), but it would require a huge effort on their part ... and still wouldn't be as good (performance wise) and using the hardware that nVidia does.

That doesn't seem like it would be a big performance hit, something for sure, but it maybe similar to worrying about the performance hit from polling with G-sync (which I have been unable to measure, my benchmarks score exactly the same with or without G-sync).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Bottom line, FreeSync isn't no where near ready for prime time ... it is still little more than a beta test (or actually, early alpha, depending on your point of view).

I am not sure that is fair, it isn't feature complete yet but what it does do it seems to do perfectly well. It isn't like it simply goes black below the VRR like alpha mobile G-sync.

Within and above the VRR FreeSync seems to be as good as it could be. I suppose driver frame limiting when above would be good but it is not needed for a version 1.0. I am (mostly) convinced that variable overdrive is really what you need the G-sync module for. All that "tuning" that the Nvidia engineers need to do for each new panel, what else could they be tuning?

I do believe a lot of people would be perfectly happy gaming on a nice TN with FreeSync that couldn't do overdrive at the same time. If there is something about the way A-sync works that prevents custom overdrive with VRR it would still be a reasonable "cheaper hardware and only slightly worse" option. I obviously haven't seen the ghosting in game in person but given the reviews it cannot be bad enough to make your average gamer too unhappy.

If this is true, and it is still a big IF, it would say very bad things about the chance of getting a good 120+ IPS panel with FreeSync. IPS is still not really fast enough for 60 Hz without overdrive, no overdrive at 120 Hz would be really bad.

[rant]
Claiming FreeSync will be better than G-sync while knowing this would be dishonest, of course, but while I agree dishonest marketing statements should be called out they don't change the experience while using the technology. As is the case with the GTX 970. Getting hung up on what was said on an old marketing slide simply doesn't help us understand where the technology is today. Maybe I am too much an engineer but I do tend to care what the tech can do and not what a company says it can do. Even reading spec sheets you need to understand where the company is coming from and which specs are random guesses or exaggerations to meet the requirements of a specific market. It might be able to meet a spec in a specific situation but it could be an order of magnitude or two off for the normal use case. Nothing is without it's marketing spin that obfuscates what a technology can really do which is why we need thorough reviews and real world testing.
[/rant]
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