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[MR] $1,500 Ether Headphones Announced! - Page 5

post #41 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Your post makes 0 sense. Every little bit of performance the extreme computer users try to get... is easily translated into benefits and NUMBERS. You get more performance and/or less noise by going the watercooling route. Its a discussion of whether what is worth to everyone... but the numbers are irrefutable.

On the other hand, head-fi is based on nonsense. There are no numbers, no logic, no nothing. You get full descriptions of completely made up information with no base or reference or anything... and people don't even require blind-testing to accept those.

To each his own... but nobody here spouts "my computer makes for a more natural experience, and you see the subtlety in the blues". Well, some might, but nobody would ever believe them. No, you get "my computer makes less noise as reported per the noise-recorder and more performance, as reported by X, Y and Z benchmarks".

So, I can't justify what so many people spend on computer parts... but the numbers those computers achieve are there. Its all backed by some hard facts. And those hard facts are completely missing on the audiophile community... which is why it isn't high-end to me.

---

Regarding the product... this makes 0 sense. This company is nowhere near the $1.5K mark. Headphones not only have to sound like $1.5K, or look like it... the company has to be a $1.5k one. And it is not.

Also, this product is a complete copy of other headphones. He uses the Denon attachment to the drivers (used in D2000 and other products in those series), and the looks are clearly Hifiman.

$1.5K for a product that copies others.... rolleyes.gifrolleyes.gifrolleyes.gif
Just because computer numbers are easy to read and audio measurements require actual knowledge, doesn't mean the entire hobby is stupid and a waste. Waterfall plots, crosstalk, distortion, frequency response, power requirements, and other qualities are entirely measurable. If people are too uneducated to understand them and can't discern people's exaggerations from reality, perhaps they should find a different hobby. I get by just fine by my own ears and other's impressions and rarely feel any purchases are a waste. I can't even read frequency response graphs tongue.gif. If I have a question I need to ask that I can't figure out, I ask someone knowledgable or look on a different forum (ex. http://www.changstar.com/ has plenty of knowledgable members and measurement posts).

I have to agree that I'm skeptical of the price and Mr. Speakers in general, but I've never heard any of their headphones so my judgement doesn't mean much.
post #42 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablosbud View Post

Just because computer numbers are easy to read and audio measurements require actual knowledge, doesn't mean the entire hobby is stupid and a waste. Waterfall plots, crosstalk, distortion, frequency response, power requirements, and other qualities are entirely measurable. If people are too uneducated to understand them and can't discern people's exaggerations from reality, perhaps they should find a different hobby. I get by just fine by my own ears and other's impressions and rarely feel any purchases are a waste. I can't even read frequency response graphs tongue.gif. If I have a question I need to ask that I can't figure out, I ask someone knowledgable or look on a different forum (ex. http://www.changstar.com/ has plenty of knowledgable members and measurement posts).

I have to agree that I'm skeptical of the price and Mr. Speakers in general, but I've never heard any of their headphones so my judgement doesn't mean much.

+1 to to this.

Also numbers and certainty seem to keep some people warm at night - I genuinely think some people are so insecure or uncomfortable with uncertainty that they need positive numbers, measurements etc. to decide which underpants to wear. (Also become instantly hostile to anyone who can live without the certainty of numbers.)

in Hifi numbers are are of limited use, personally I find measurements of headphones useful, but unable to predict the whole of the performance. For other equipment, measurements are even less useful, except for people that manage to convince themselves that measurements and blind testing are all that matter.

Actually I have come across a number of blind tests which fly in the face of commonly held audio skeptic beliefs but these are rejected outright, usually for not presenting evidence or data, or lack of methodological rigor, even though the skeptics are happy to refer to blind testing which supports their position which does not meet all the same high methodological standards...


All this is massively off topic. Very few headphones come with meaningful data, apart from those which have been tested by third parties. This headphone has just been released, so this information is not available.

Hardcore positivists unable to cope in daily life without the comforting 'certainty' of empirical data might have to sit this one out for a bit.
Edited by drez - 3/27/15 at 5:53pm
post #43 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablosbud View Post

Just because computer numbers are easy to read and audio measurements require actual knowledge, doesn't mean the entire hobby is stupid and a waste. Waterfall plots, crosstalk, distortion, frequency response, power requirements, and other qualities are entirely measurable. If people are too uneducated to understand them and can't discern people's exaggerations from reality, perhaps they should find a different hobby. I get by just fine by my own ears and other's impressions and rarely feel any purchases are a waste. I can't even read frequency response graphs tongue.gif. If I have a question I need to ask that I can't figure out, I ask someone knowledgable or look on a different forum (ex. http://www.changstar.com/ has plenty of knowledgable members and measurement posts).

I have to agree that I'm skeptical of the price and Mr. Speakers in general, but I've never heard any of their headphones so my judgement doesn't mean much.

Contrary to popular believes, audio measurements require no actual knowledge and mean nothing... unless you are in a studio recording something of value, which isn't the discussion at hand.

Why? Everything has an influence on audio "quality", if anything because it is something entirely subjective. One has only to look at the direction the industry has been following for quite a while: you are an audiophile if you "feel" the difference that "certain" components offer and, using the goldean ear reference from time to time*, you are not part of the community if you try expensive interconnects and feel they are worthless. Its simply a chain: to be part of the community you gotta agree on the general consensus... which is based on absolutely nothing.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me one bit what people believe or not (in every aspect of life). But it bothers me when people follow others blindly simply because they are "respected" within the community, as I have always believed that what mattered isn't the speaker... but the message itself.

Where do I stand? I stand that if you know two objects differ on price and you know which one is the most expensive one... but factor will condition your decision. Brand and looks will also be a factor. And the underlying question... do those parameters really matter when we talk about SOUND? No, they do not. If A is truly better sounding than B, nor price, nor looks nor brand should alter the outcome of any given experiment... but because it does, the only truly way of testing those is to erase the conditioning factors.

It isn't that "blind testing is the mother of all tests...", it is the fact that it should be standard within the industry... and not only it is dismissed left and right... its also banned form many discussion forums because "it creates a complicated discussion". Right, companies sponsoring those forums have no impact on that rolleyes.gif

To sum up, if you blindly test a $10 and a $1000 interconnect and your non-biased analysis shows that you prefer the expensive one... you can determine that, TO YOU, that is the better for your system. But since that is never the case because no reviewer EVER does a blind test done right... then reviews are completely worthless.

*golden ears do exist... but most of the audiophile community don't even understand what they are. They are not a "cable analyser", they are people who understand tones in an absolute manner and never as a relative one (which is how 99,9% of the human beings perceive sound). Even in the high-end classical music industry they are hard to come by... and I don't think its even useful as a soloist.
Edited by prava - 3/27/15 at 6:24pm
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post #44 of 101
i feel bad for those that think a 10$ cable and a 1000$ cable do the same thing.

is the 1k overpriced? Absolutely. but interference and balance are REAL AS IT GETS.mad.gif
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post #45 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by prava View Post

Contrary to popular believes, audio measurements require no actual knowledge and mean nothing... unless you are in a studio recording something of value, which isn't the discussion at hand.

Why? Everything has an influence on audio "quality", if anything because it is something entirely subjective. One has only to look at the direction the industry has been following for quite a while: you are an audiophile if you "feel" the difference that "certain" components offer and, using the goldean ear reference from time to time*, you are not part of the community if you try expensive interconnects and feel they are worthless. Its simply a chain: to be part of the community you gotta agree on the general consensus... which is based on absolutely nothing.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me one bit what people believe or not (in every aspect of life). But it bothers me when people follow others blindly simply because they are "respected" within the community, as I have always believed that what mattered isn't the speaker... but the message itself.

Where do I stand? I stand that if you know two objects differ on price and you know which one is the most expensive one... but factor will condition your decision. Brand and looks will also be a factor. And the underlying question... do those parameters really matter when we talk about SOUND? No, they do not. If A is truly better sounding than B, nor price, nor looks nor brand should alter the outcome of any given experiment... but because it does, the only truly way of testing those is to erase the conditioning factors.

It isn't that "blind testing is the mother of all tests...", it is the fact that it should be standard within the industry... and not only it is dismissed left and right... its also banned form many discussion forums because "it creates a complicated discussion". Right, companies sponsoring those forums have no impact on that rolleyes.gif

To sum up, if you blindly test a $10 and a $1000 interconnect and your non-biased analysis shows that you prefer the expensive one... you can determine that, TO YOU, that is the better for your system. But since that is never the case because no reviewer EVER does a blind test done right... then reviews are completely worthless.

*golden ears do exist... but most of the audiophile community don't even understand what they are. They are not a "cable analyser", they are people who understand tones in an absolute manner and never as a relative one (which is how 99,9% of the human beings perceive sound). Even in the high-end classical music industry they are hard to come by... and I don't think its even useful as a soloist.
That is true, measurements aren't of much value because everything truly comes down to what one prefers. Measurements do give people a look at how a headphone will likely sound to them without actually having to go and hear it themselves, which circumvents people's own impressions and exaggerations that they perceive. I know what you mean about the audio industry, but I personally just ignore the cult-like behaviour and enjoy music. It used to frustrate me that the audio industry was so corrupt and that people were such fools, but eventually I realized there are more important things in my life to worry about.

I wasn't claiming that measurements and objective tests were the be-all-end-all of the audio industry. But they certainly aren't useless and can give a gigantic insight into how well a headphone will perform (much like how synthetic benchmarks with computers give a relative idea of performance, but aren't always necessarily true). I understand that ultimately hearing is required to find out what a particular "person" prefers, but headphones can be ranked objectively based on sonic accuracy. For example, nothing will change that some low end Sony doesn't sound good... justifying it with "in my opinion" won't fix anything because it measures far, far worse than top-of-the-line headphones and can be objectively said to be worse.

As far as the differences between components in the chain goes, headphones are obviously the most important part. For the most part, amps and DACs don't make a "massive" difference. It is relatively small most of the time, but sometimes with high-end equipment it can be the tipping point that makes a headphone good. For example, I was thinking of selling my headphones when my system was an Audioengine D3, Nuforce HA-200, and Sennheiser HD800... but when I changed the DAC to a Micromega MyDAC it made a world of difference (the depth in the sound stage and increase in detail made a boring headphone more likeable). The combination is still a tad bright, but I can see the potential that I didn't see before. I thought high-end DACs were stupid and a waste before, but that experience was a revelation. Ultimately we must rely on our own ears and experiences, but at the same time we can't let placebo fool us (which it does for many people). Objective measurements are a way to prove that what we are hearing is real and not just our imagination. The auditory sense can easily be deceived and nobody is "immune" to being wrong once in a while. Hell, even sometimes people's eyes deceive them and it is a far more accurate sense.
post #46 of 101
Went into this thread, expected the subjective vs. objective argument and that 'these headphones are a waste of money, I'm satisfied with $100 headphones' and the rightfully counter argument of 'no one blinks an eye here when someone SLIs GTX980s, respect others' hobbies etc...'

Got all of that.

My opinion: Go look at the Mr. Speakers Mad Dog measurements on Innerfidelity. They measure horribly. It really is essentially 'ricing' your (was started off as already average) headphones.

While I cannot judge these new planars based on 'brand name', the less said positively about the Mad Dogs the better.

The problem is that many people don't properly understand the headphone measurements nor know what proper balanced frequency response is.

Also people fail to realise in this thread that in general, headphones are quite profitable. Retail price is usually easily 2 - 2.5 x the manufacturing cost. With 'fashion' and 'gaming' oriented headphones, the margin is even higher.
Edited by chinesekiwi - 3/27/15 at 7:54pm
post #47 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by badtaylorx View Post

i feel bad for those that think a 10$ cable and a 1000$ cable do the same thing.

is the 1k overpriced? Absolutely. but interference and balance are REAL AS IT GETS.mad.gif

So buy (or make) a $50 cable that does what the $1000 cable does.

Really, going anything beyond medical grade silver is pointless, and even that is pointless depending on the intended function of the cable. Typically the greatest amount of distortion/color produced is either in the amp or the driver.
post #48 of 101
Okay, if you think expensive audio cables are worthwhile or they have a positive effect on the sound, answer me this one question...

How?

Not one recording studio uses this junk, I can speak for that as I own one. So, you are in fact DISTORTING the original sound not enhancing it's clarity, because the record was all done using good quality normal 12ga copper cable. If silver cables add any acoustic effects (and they don't but for sake of argument), those acoustic effects did not in fact originate or "reveap" themselves from the recording... They never would have been recorded!

What's the logic?
   
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post #49 of 101
I dont think they look like a 1500 bucks headphone.
I hate the honeycomb design, they look rather cheap.
I'll stick to my LCD-X unless they sound totally holy moly cow insanly godlike
post #50 of 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by badtaylorx View Post

i feel bad for those that think a 10$ cable and a 1000$ cable do the same thing.

is the 1k overpriced? Absolutely. but interference and balance are REAL AS IT GETS.mad.gif

Whatever floats your boat. Please do find me some objective tests that proof that those miracle cables are actually better than the not-so-miracle ones.

Well... you won't fine them, because those who actually have them like to boast about how "superior" they are, and about how inferior you are if you don't feel the difference. And those who can't afford them, or simply don't believe in snake oil, demand proof before spending their hard earned coin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diablosbud View Post

That is true, measurements aren't of much value because everything truly comes down to what one prefers. Measurements do give people a look at how a headphone will likely sound to them without actually having to go and hear it themselves, which circumvents people's own impressions and exaggerations that they perceive. I know what you mean about the audio industry, but I personally just ignore the cult-like behaviour and enjoy music. It used to frustrate me that the audio industry was so corrupt and that people were such fools, but eventually I realized there are more important things in my life to worry about.

I wasn't claiming that measurements and objective tests were the be-all-end-all of the audio industry. But they certainly aren't useless and can give a gigantic insight into how well a headphone will perform (much like how synthetic benchmarks with computers give a relative idea of performance, but aren't always necessarily true). I understand that ultimately hearing is required to find out what a particular "person" prefers, but headphones can be ranked objectively based on sonic accuracy. For example, nothing will change that some low end Sony doesn't sound good... justifying it with "in my opinion" won't fix anything because it measures far, far worse than top-of-the-line headphones and can be objectively said to be worse.

As far as the differences between components in the chain goes, headphones are obviously the most important part. For the most part, amps and DACs don't make a "massive" difference. It is relatively small most of the time, but sometimes with high-end equipment it can be the tipping point that makes a headphone good. For example, I was thinking of selling my headphones when my system was an Audioengine D3, Nuforce HA-200, and Sennheiser HD800... but when I changed the DAC to a Micromega MyDAC it made a world of difference (the depth in the sound stage and increase in detail made a boring headphone more likeable). The combination is still a tad bright, but I can see the potential that I didn't see before. I thought high-end DACs were stupid and a waste before, but that experience was a revelation. Ultimately we must rely on our own ears and experiences, but at the same time we can't let placebo fool us (which it does for many people). Objective measurements are a way to prove that what we are hearing is real and not just our imagination. The auditory sense can easily be deceived and nobody is "immune" to being wrong once in a while. Hell, even sometimes people's eyes deceive them and it is a far more accurate sense.

You can't tell how a headphone will sound just looking at a graph. You have to go and test them. And they do sound incredible different from each other, so its not like you are "not hearing it different".

But the thing is... the headphone is what actually emits the sound. The amp and DAC and cables are simple transmiters. They aren't there to change or modify, they are there to pass on, and nothing else.

So, your example is the typical one: you need to modify the HD800 actual sound signature in order to like them. And you do that by using components that add things to the sound. I don't know, but If I don't like a headphone I simply don't try to find the components that make it more to my liking. I simply dismiss it and test another one.

Which is why I ended up with so many headphones rolleyes.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinesekiwi View Post

Went into this thread, expected the subjective vs. objective argument and that 'these headphones are a waste of money, I'm satisfied with $100 headphones' and the rightfully counter argument of 'no one blinks an eye here when someone SLIs GTX980s, respect others' hobbies etc...'

Got all of that.

My opinion: Go look at the Mr. Speakers Mad Dog measurements on Innerfidelity. They measure horribly. It really is essentially 'ricing' your (was started off as already average) headphones.

While I cannot judge these new planars based on 'brand name', the less said positively about the Mad Dogs the better.

The problem is that many people don't properly understand the headphone measurements nor know what proper balanced frequency response is.

Also people fail to realise in this thread that in general, headphones are quite profitable. Retail price is usually easily 2 - 2.5 x the manufacturing cost. With 'fashion' and 'gaming' oriented headphones, the margin is even higher.

For the record, I'm not satisfied with $100. As a matter of fact, my daily drivers are the Sennheiser HD650 (powered with an Objective 2 + ODAC). Also, headphone measurements mean nothing unless you want them for studio purposes... but since price and brand make a huge different on the perceived quality of the product, it is really difficult to test something on your head (which you can tell... because clamping force and earpads are so different its easy to know what is on your head) when you know what it is.

But cables, amps and dacs... it should be terribly easy to test them properly. Heck, nobody would ever buy medicine that hasn't been blind-tested (placebo effect), yet everybody buys untested pseudo-audiophile products and BELIEVE they do sound better.
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