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[WCCF] Windows 10 to Support 8K Resolution - Page 6

post #51 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniflex View Post

I do agree that there is certainly a subjective part involved, however, there are also physical/physiological limits with nothing subjective in them.

There is nothing subjective of the physiological mechanics that capture and send the data, we know how those mechanics work by study and dissection. The subjectivity is the processing of that data. The brain is really good at filtering out specific noise/data that doesn't matter in a particular situation, the thing that makes this tricky is the really odd way that the brain actually handles this. I'm not an ophthalmologist or any studied neuro-whatever you want to call it. Just a lay "optics snob", so I've picked up a little, enough to make me dangerous and sound stupid half the time. lol

Quote:
The "approx 8k is the physical limit of human vision system" statement logic is roughly following:

If a "average human" observes a image composed of black and white lines then at some point photons (or lack of them) from the adjacent regions end up on the same light sensitive cell in the human retina. When a average human with 20/20 vision starts seeing an uniform gray image instead of black and white lines he has hit his eye physical limit. Based on the optical properties of human vision system and the density of light sensitive cells in the central part of retina (where they are the densest) the limit is roughly 7600 lines horizontally and roughly 5000 lines vertically (assuming the whole retina has the cell density as the most densely populated part) in an area where humans can see with both eyes (approx 120 deg horizontal, approx 90 deg vertical).

Yeah, that's all pretty well laid out.

Since we live in a mostly horizontal life space, I believe we're far better conditioned to notice left/right of center periphery than vertical. I notice I'm far more likely to needing to look up or down rather than to either side... but then again, I'm half japanese and smoke too much, so my eyes may not be fully opened. That's completely another topic, yeah....

A little reading on psychological... err... neuropshycological or neuro-whatever you want to call it.... scotoma, not the physical debilitation, but the mental processing. Subconsciously, our minds play tricks on how we interpret visual signal. Sometimes we cannot see what is physically in front of us, and sometimes we create constructs where there are none. Faces in random patterns, bunnies in the clouds, optical illusion.... for instance hollow mask perception vs physical limitation illusions.

When we're focused on a specific part of the screen and observing specific fine detail, we need to inhibit processing of fine detail and even large events while we are focusing... binocular effect that you mentioned. Not sure if you meant that in that context at all as you were talking about the physiological aspect of it... I'm talking more the mental effect... like the Gorilla walking across a busy scene where you're paying attention to how many balls are changing hands at any given time example.

My only real point is that that finer resolution isn't really necessary unless that's specifically what you're testing for. If all your focus is on the resolution, that's all that you're really paying attention to. For testing that's great, but if you're actually putting that resolution to use, diminished fine detail becomes much less of an issue. For example, 24fps is necessary to trick the brain into seeing fluid motion even though we can perceive far greater.
Quote:
The bandwidth issue of human vision system is separate and more complex. At first glance it might seem simple to calculate the bandwidth as optical nerve is well studied including the number of axons in it. So multiply it by the maximum possible pulse rate (1/relaxation time basically determining the time when next nerve pulse can follow). However, that would be oversimplification as there is some pre-processing and "compression" if you can use that word for a biological signal processing already happening within the eye.

Yup. You can use those words just fine because without making up new terms, they apply just fine.

Quote:
Anyway - I'm getting carried away. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that human does not need to be able to process every individual pixel at 8k at 120 Hz to be able to say "the one in the left is a bit better screen", ofc the question is that if you start doing statistics how large portion of the population is able to do that. My wild guess would be that if you put 4k and 8k @ 120 Hz side by side at, say 90 cm [~36''] (considered normal viewing distance for a PC screen) and say 40'' diagonal (a size I personally would guess to be roughly the upper limit what fits on the table on your "average" PC desk) the people who could tell which one is 4k and which one is 8k would be statistically insignificant. 4k at that size becomes retina at approx 28'' and 8k at approx 14''. So the portion who could objectively see the difference would be very very far end of Gauss distribution. Depends on the image ofc as well - showing diagonal lines, for example, instead of horizontal/vertical black and white lines might make the difference.

Nah, not getting carried away at all. And I'm not really disagreeing with you one bit. I'm just saying past the physical aspect there's a really complex mental structure that you didn't really mention. That might matter much more or less to me than you, or who knows. smile.gif

My point can be expressed as easily as "where's waldo".

You can increase the resolution to the limits of visual acuity, you'll get crisper and more detailed data, but while you're busy in-game performing missions, paying attention to directional sound events and generally running around killing and trying not to get killed, most of that extra detail will be lost because you're not specifically focusing on that. Like all those people who pixel peep and resolution test chart measurebate... they're going out of their way to investigate something that really won't affect them in day to day use, the only time that actually affects them is when they're pixel peeing or test charting.

Quote:
And yet the 8k would sell and people would be happy as clams, because they have bigger number than their neighbor biggrin.gif Plus we also have people who can "tell the difference" between x8 AA and x16 AA on a 32'' 4k screen at arms length (presumably because they know the number they set in the settings would be my guess) and "need" it to be able to fully enjoy their content.

Of course there will be... and the distinction of "need" vs "neruoticism" will become more blurry.
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post #52 of 54
Quote:
Originally Posted by iARDAs View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post

To me, 4k is just another 16:9. And I'd agree for gaming, I don't think I ever want to go anything other than 21:9. Honestly I think upgrading to 21:9 was better than upgrading to a SSD. I'm hoping a mfg will make a 40" 3820 x 1600. That would be ideal for me.

If I ever go back to pc gaming 21:9 will be my choice. Do all newer games support this ratio?

No, not all titles support 21:9 and if they don't, some can be fixed, others can't. Most newer AAA titles do... Dying Light, BioShock Infinite, Metro Redux, Tomb Raider, etc... all do. Evolve, for example, does not. I actually explained this in detail to someone else the other day... I'll copy/paste:

=====================
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenophobe View Post

A lot of games don't support 21:9, but you would probably be surprised how many actually do.
On a monitor like this, if the game doesn't support the 21:9 aspect ratio, wouldn't you just get the old "widescreen" effect, only instead of black bars on the top and bottom, have black bars on the sides?

Well, there can be all sorts of weirdness... some games don't directly support it but can be configured with Flawless Widescreen, some games just won't display HUD or dialogue popups correctly, overlap, partially offscreen, etc... some games you need to play in windowed mode or they'll stretch 21:9 which looks absolutely horrid, a few games just will stretch with no way to play windowed mode making them unplayable.

If you own a 21:9, you find yourself checking forums to make sure you have 21:9 support before buying a game.

Most newer titles support it just fine though. It's really amazing when they do. Many titles that support 21:9 only have 16:9 cutscenes and menus sometimes... and even a game that fully supports 21:9 might have minor visual problems that don't really affect anything, just aren't very flattering... menus in 16:9, cutscenes with added letterbox....

So yeah, sometimes *any particular game* may not work as intended. So there is a sizable list of cons. But once you get that ultra wide gaming experience, it really makes the slight fuss worthwhile.
Edited by xenophobe - 3/27/15 at 2:28pm
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post #53 of 54
8k is not news to me

even win7 can do it
post #54 of 54
That's nice and all but I'll be going for 4k/120+Hz when we have the affordable hardware available for it instead.
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