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post #41 of 61
I don't know why you're so concerned about PCI slots when there's no budget to put anything in them.
post #42 of 61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

I don't know why you're so concerned about PCI slots when there's no budget to put anything in them.

That doesn't make any sense either. Just because my sister doesn't want to spend too much on a PC now doesn't mean she won't be able to afford various cards that she might need in the future. What you've said imples that a PC has to be completed all in one go and after that, it's impossible to invest more money in it to upgrade it in future, which is clearly nonsense, unless of course you buy a motherboard without sufficient slots, in which case you obviously can't make use of them!
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post #43 of 61
You're creating a PC and thinking your sister will spend half that amount to make upgrades in the future. I highly doubt she will.

What I am suggesting is spending money on components that will give you the best system for the money today. I'm all about having an eye to the future, but you're planning for things she will probably never want or need. I'm saying the system you have assembled is bad, I'm saying the money is disproportionately spent. At least that's my opinion. I wonder if this build is more about fulfilling what your sister needs compared to fulfilling what you want her to want.
post #44 of 61
how about AMD's APU? an A8 fits the budget well, and at default clock is well capable of light gaming too.
post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by doveman View Post

So the G3258 and the ASRock Z97 PRO4 that PontiacGTX suggested are 100% crap are they? What's so underpowered about an overclocked G3258, plenty of people seem to be quite satisfied, if not amazed, by them? One minute I'm being told I don't need a quad-core for gaming, then I'm being told a dual-core is no good for non-gaming!

Flubit have offered me the Z97 Pro4 for £77, so with a total build cost of £274 that's hardly "half the budget". Even at the full Scan price of £86 it isn't.

Even if the i5-4690k is EOL by the end of 2016, they're not just going to throw them all away are they? So maybe there'll be some good deals in a year or two and if it's the only option and she needs to upgrade, we can consider buying s/h then but I (and more importantly my sister) want to start with new components with warranty.

I was saying that a proper mobo like the asrock extreme 4, MSI GD65, or the asus z97-a would be half your budget.

The asrock pro is unstable and buggy. Just go ask any employee at aria about how many of those things get returned. I know they get returned all the time at microcenter.

I personally have tried using the pro 3 and 4 and both of them were possessed. Boat loaders would randomly go missing and my computer would randomly blue screen even though I was using stock bios settings with parts I knew to be stable.

Now some people have said that if you simply replace the Cmos battery, then the board is a lot better. However, I never bothered to even wait. I just returned the board.


The pentium chip is under powered for two reasons. 1: you can not overclock it (I will explain in a second), and 2 it only has 2 cores....and that is all I need to say.

You can not overclock because you have no money for a cooler. Any money that you would spend on a cooler can easily be used elsewhere to make a better computer. Like ohhhhhhhhhhhh IDK....maybe a better mobo or an SSD perhaps?

Now you might be able to overclock with the stock cooler, but you are not going to be able to overclock a hell of a lot. So I am not even considering that as a viable argument.

And like I said it has 2 freaking cores. In gaming 2 cores is decent, but for anything else....nope. If she tried to do a little multi-tasking, she is going to notice a pretty big slow down especially with a mechanical drive. And god forbid she ever decides to edit any type of media.

The pentium really is a suffocating chip. I get that she can upgrade, but that is a awesome way to just throw money away. You are not going to be able to sell that pentium for beans when the new intel chips come out, so do not even try and argue that you can reclaim the money on the chip because you can't.


Here is what I am going to say.

If she wants a gaming PC, then get used parts or at the very least get new parts and a used CPU and used ram.

Right now you can get some awesome X58 gear for dirt cheap and it would absolutely fly in terms of performance.

If she wants an internet box, then build her an amd APU mini ITX computer and build the thing for 200 bucks and save her some cash.

But in either case, please for the love of god build her a tangible computer.

Do not build her a box of hopes and dreams. Build her something that she can legitimately use for the next 5 years so that she does not spend any more money than she has to.
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post #46 of 61
Everything I have read suggests the G3258 can be overclocked to 4.5GHz on the stock cooler. And you're making two cores out to be a death sentence. This processor is adequate for gaming. There's literally no better bang for your buck when overclocked. Even for games that take advantage of more than two threads, you'll be able to play with acceptable frame rates. This is a budget build. This system is not intended for heavily multithreaded tasks and the most CPU-demanding games. As for watching videos, browsing the web, creating documents, and other things the average person does this build is more than capable.

Used X58 motherboards are not "dirt cheap." The only way I would recommend someone build an X58 system today is if they already have the motherboard in their possession. It's more cost-effective to go with a LGA 1150 system.

And I'm never recommending an APU build. You limit your upgrade potential if you do. At least with LGA 1150, you can swap out the G3258 for an i5 down the road. Even if it's on a mainstream chipset, there's performance to be had. Not so with FM2.
Edited by chessmyantidrug - 3/29/15 at 10:18am
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by chessmyantidrug View Post

Everything I have read suggests the G3258 can be overclocked to 4.5GHz on the stock cooler. And you're making two cores out to be a death sentence. This processor is adequate for gaming. There's literally no better bang for your buck when overclocked. Even for games that take advantage of more than two threads, you'll be able to play with acceptable frame rates. This is a budget build. This system is not intended for heavily multithreaded tasks and the most CPU-demanding games. As for watching videos, browsing the web, creating documents, and other things the average person does this build is more than capable.

Used X58 motherboards are not "dirt cheap." The only way I would recommend someone build an X58 system today is if they already have the motherboard in their possession. It's more cost-effective to go with a LGA 1150 system.

And I'm never recommending an APU build. You limit your upgrade potential if you do. At least with LGA 1150, you can swap out the G3258 for an i5 down the road. Even if it's on a mainstream chipset, there's performance to be had. Not so with AM3+.

yes but no, the problem isn't much on the core speed itself, but the queue depth of running only on two cores.
the deeper the queue means the more chance for stutter to occur, and the primary cause of stuttering is when branch prediction occurs.

and if you think about it, running 2cores means theres twice as deep queue than on 4cores.
Edited by epic1337 - 3/29/15 at 10:12am
post #48 of 61
I have no idea what tasks you expect his sister to perform, but I imagine two cores will be plenty.
post #49 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tjj226 Angel View Post

I was saying that a proper mobo like the asrock extreme 4, MSI GD65, or the asus z97-a would be half your budget.

The asrock pro is unstable and buggy. Just go ask any employee at aria about how many of those things get returned. I know they get returned all the time at microcenter.

I personally have tried using the pro 3 and 4 and both of them were possessed. Boat loaders would randomly go missing and my computer would randomly blue screen even though I was using stock bios settings with parts I knew to be stable.

Now some people have said that if you simply replace the Cmos battery, then the board is a lot better. However, I never bothered to even wait. I just returned the board.

Having looked at newegg, there are a fair number of reports of DOA or quickly dying boards but then again they're outweighed by the number of glowing reviews about the build quality of the board and value for money and we know that people who have problems are more likely to post about them than satisfied customers who are happily using their PCs and overall it gets 4 stars. The Asrock Extreme 4, which you reckon is better, on the other hand also has a number of similar reports about DOA or faulty boards and only gets 3 stars overall.

So from that I could conclude that Asrock are just not very good and I should avoid any of their boards, including the more expensive one you call a "proper mobo" which might be a valid conclusion, even though there's been a lot of reports/reviews in the last few years stating that they've improved massively since a while ago when their QA was rather poor. So lets say I rule out Asrock boards just to be on the safe side, as I want to do my best to avoid my sister running into any issues.
Quote:
The pentium chip is under powered for two reasons. 1: you can not overclock it (I will explain in a second), and 2 it only has 2 cores....and that is all I need to say.

You can not overclock because you have no money for a cooler. Any money that you would spend on a cooler can easily be used elsewhere to make a better computer. Like ohhhhhhhhhhhh IDK....maybe a better mobo or an SSD perhaps?

Now you might be able to overclock with the stock cooler, but you are not going to be able to overclock a hell of a lot. So I am not even considering that as a viable argument.

Now you're just contradicting what pretty much every review and user report says about the G3258. There's tons of people who are happily overclocking it to 4.2-4.3Ghz with the stock cooler, which is a pretty decent overclock as far as I'm concerned. Sure, I might need to get another heatsink to push it to 4.7Ghz but that's only going to cost about £20 if I decide the extra .4-.5 Ghz is really going to make that much difference. You're suggesting I get a different non-OC quad-core CPU, which will be slower for single-threaded and spend quite a bit more on that CPU and a better motherboard, instead of spending £20 on a heatsink. I don't know if the stock cooler is any different but I've got mine from my i5-4670k spare, so she can have that if it's any better.
Quote:
And like I said it has 2 freaking cores. In gaming 2 cores is decent, but for anything else....nope. If she tried to do a little multi-tasking, she is going to notice a pretty big slow down especially with a mechanical drive. And god forbid she ever decides to edit any type of media.

It seems you're just mixing up stuff to try and justify not liking the CPU now.. The HDD and CPU are completely separate bottlenecks. If she's bottlenecked in a particular situation by the HDD unable to supply data fast enoug,h a quad-core isn't going to make any difference. If she's bottlenecked in a particular situation by insufficient cores to process whatever needs to be processed, the speed of the storage medium isn't going to be relevant and a SSD wouldn't help. Anyway, I've already said that we'll probably add a SSD in the near future, which I think will make more difference as far as her multi-tasking needs are concerned than getting her a quad-core now.

I can't imagine her ever wanting to edit video but if she did and I get her a suitable motherboard, at least she can upgrade to a quad-core if necessary. As for being rubbish for anything other than gaming, the comparison between the OC G3258 and the i3-4330 here shows that to be nonsense, with the OC G3258 beating the i3-4330 in several single-threaded tests and not being that far behind in most of the others http://www.anandtech.com/show/8232/overclockable-pentium-anniversary-edition-review-the-intel-pentium-g3258-ae
Quote:
Here is what I am going to say.

If she wants a gaming PC, then get used parts or at the very least get new parts and a used CPU and used ram.

Right now you can get some awesome X58 gear for dirt cheap and it would absolutely fly in terms of performance.

If she wants an internet box, then build her an amd APU mini ITX computer and build the thing for 200 bucks and save her some cash.

But in either case, please for the love of god build her a tangible computer.

Do not build her a box of hopes and dreams. Build her something that she can legitimately use for the next 5 years so that she does not spend any more money than she has to.

I accept it might be that I can't get an acceptable quality motherboard that will cope with OC a i5-4690k to 4.2-4.4Ghz within her budget and going from a OC G3258 to a non-OC quad core will actually be detrimental in some regards (i.e. single-threaded performance and maybe some games), so I might just have to get her a cheaper board that is suitable for the G3258 instead and she'll have to buy a new board and CPU if she decides to upgrade. Maybe the Asus Z87M-Plus with the G3258, which will cost about £95 together. I'm just not seeing any better options that don't cost considerably more and that will give her a reasonable gaming machine (once she adds a graphics card) as well as being reasonable for basic tasks. I'm not entirely comfortable that games won't need a quad-core in the near future, as with the current-gen consoles moving that way and a lot of PC games being ports, along with DX12 enhancements in terms of multi-core/multi-threading I expect things to change but I guess it's a risk I have to take to get her a reasonable system for her current needs with a reliable, quality motherboard.

Spending £200 on a AMD APU mini ITX machine which won't be any good for gaming, even with the addition of a graphics card and has considerably worse single-threaded performance seems daft when I can put together the G3258 build for £50 more.

If you've got any better suggestions than the Z87M-Plus and G3258 for about £100 though, I'll be happy to consider them. Asrock and MSI boards seem to have the most issues, so I'm pretty much ruling them out.
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post #50 of 61
Thread Starter 
Well flubit have offered me the Asus Z87-M Plus for £44.36 so I guess I'm going to get that and the G3258 unless someone can show me something better.

By ordering the CPU, motherboard, RAM (HyperX Savage 8GB 1600MHz CL9) and WD 1TB from flubit and the case and PSU from Scan, I'll get the total cost down to £241.48, so I might be able to squeeze a 120GB SSD in there after all and still stay roughly within budget.

One thing I don't like about these smaller boards is that they never have any support on the right-hand side where the 24-pin power cable plugs in, so you have to be careful not to flex the board when connecting it. What I tend to do is install a short extension cable and the RAM before installing the board into the case, so that I can avoid having to press down on that side. Mind you, according to the newegg reviews, even the Asrock Z97 Pro 4 isn't a real ATX board and also doesn't have any support on that side so just buying what is described as a ATX board doesn't guarantee you won't run into this problem.
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