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Horrible pictures of dead caps - Page 12

post #111 of 131
Thread Starter 
Biostar NF4 4X-A7 mainboard, Chemi-con KZG caps, user Benbow, SHW forum.

post #112 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by trodas View Post

No such caps as "Ultracaps" exist, to my best knowledge. You have to see thru marketing BS and trace down source of that "Ultracaps." Almost guaranted, that this will be some China junk that dies prematurely and never even as new have the specs they claim... and that is still pretty far away from any good Nichicon polymers wink.gif
I was thinking of Supercapacitors. I want to see a blown up Supercap.
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post #113 of 131
Thread Starter 
No such caps as "Supercapacitors" exist, to my best knowledge. You have to see thru marketing BS and trace down source of that "Supercap." Almost guaranted, that this will be some China junk that dies prematurely and never even as new have the specs they claim... and that is still pretty far away from any good Nichicon polymers wink.gif
post #114 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by trodas View Post

No such caps as "Supercapacitors" exist, to my best knowledge. You have to see thru marketing BS and trace down source of that "Supercap." Almost guaranted, that this will be some China junk that dies prematurely and never even as new have the specs they claim... and that is still pretty far away from any good Nichicon polymers wink.gif
Here is the link to the wiki page.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
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post #115 of 131
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Here is the link to the wiki page.http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
Quote:
A supercapacitor (SC) (sometimes ultracapacitor, formerly electric double-layer capacitor (EDLC)) is a high-capacity electrochemical capacitor with capacitance values up to 10,000 farads at 1.2 volt that bridge the gap between electrolytic capacitors and rechargeable batteries.

Since:
- only 1.2V is useless for most CPU's (except few, and then forget overclocking)
- even 1 farad will seriously overhelm the mosfets, as they need to charge the capacity on startup
- there is NO WORD about ERS / ESL / max. ripple of these Supercaps

A word of theory, backed for example by this VRM guide: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slta055/slta055.pdf
Let's take for reference this: 2700 F / 2.7V (quite a difference from beforeclaimed only 1.2V) Supercaps, as used in Mannheim, Germany: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor#Energy_recovery

The mosfets typically need 1A for every 1000uF to charge the bulk capacitors on the output of any VRM. See page 11, point 2.5 "Absolute Maximum Capacitor Limits."

Now for 2700F (this is insane 2 700 000 000uF) you need charging current of 2 700 000A biggrin.gif Good luck with that! (typically ouput capacitance consist of say 8 180uF (5x 1500uF + 680uF caps, as on ASRock 775i65G http://www.overclock.net/t/1554292/asrock-775i65g-r3-0-mod-and-recap ), witch in turn need charging current of 8.2A - well within the limits of current technology... even as I will upgrade them to 6x 2200uF, then it will need 13.2A, witch is still acceptable charge-on load after power up from 12V line for the CPU part)

Good luck with finding a mofets and PSU, witch can take what Supercapacitor can offer.

Also - mainboard producers did not adopt such supercaps yet, and it is well possible, that the characteristic of this capacitance make it useless for hi-frequency designs need for computer components.

...

So if you want to see blown out Supercapacitor, then connect the 2.7V unit to 110V AC and as you do it, please take cover biggrin.gifthumb.gif

/it would be cool, if you can record the event biggrin.gif The images bellow will not be as extreme, as you are about to witness tongue.gif


....


Unknown mainboard and user, found on BadCaps forum, YEC caps.




Edited by trodas - 5/16/15 at 12:35pm
post #116 of 131
Thread Starter 
Jamicon cap 1000uF 35V in UPS from Fortron, user TomTom, PCTuning forum.

post #117 of 131
Looks like my AS Rock ITX board is using different SF caps...


They're in a gold shell which maybe that provides more secure housing for them to blow up? Who knows. All I know is my board is rock solid right now. It will be a sad day when it does go. I'm hoping to keep this 2500k till 2020...lol
post #118 of 131
Thread Starter 
Well, they are not that stressed, so they are not going to "boom"... However: to my knowledge, no respectable capacitor vendor made gold painted caps. Also Nichicon caps does NOT feature SF version, as you can check:
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/capacitors/aluminum-polymer-capacitors/132402?k=nichicon
See? No SF series.

Dunno what they are... and I was talking about my ASRock 775i65G.
post #119 of 131
Thread Starter 
HP Proliant ML350 server, user Smokin Whale of OCAU forum, likely fake Rubycon caps.

post #120 of 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsc1973 View Post

Not as horrendous as some I've seen here, but this is the motherboard in a friend of mine's eMachine. It quit booting up, and you can see why:



Not much in the way of leakage, but they're bulging on both the top and the bottom. And the worst part:



These appear to be phony Panasonic capacitors. I don't think two real ones would fail when all they had to power was an Athlon II X2 at stock.
They are not fake.

At least, they don't look fake to my eyes. And that's not the first account of prematurely failed Panasonic capacitors. More than a few exist on badcaps.net and on a select few sites otherwise, but not in such disconcerting volume that they would be considered as bad as NCC's KZG and KZJ (the prematurely failed ones are of the FJ, FJS, and FL series, equal to HM and HN respectively). Unless it's just the image, I think I might see some slight discoloration around that area of the PCB which means the FETs on the VRM output might have become very hot (possibly giving light as to the reason for the failure in question).

In those ultra low ESR capacitors, though, the high amount of H2O in the electrolyte has a tendency to aggressively react with the aluminum oxide layer and essentially thins it until it's gone and only the aluminum foil is left, causing hydrogen gas to form and eventual dry outs (aluminum hydration). You can use inhibitors and oxidizers to reduce the effect but that's all it does, prolong the effect (even if for a rather long time if good neutralizers are used). Combined with the fact that the highly aqueous electrolyte expands and dries out considerably with heat, I don't think they're designed to live forever. That's why most of their datasheets only rate their load life to be about 2,000 hours @ 105*C. And this is why KZGs and KZJs are so bad. KZGs weren't discontinued, though, at least not as of 2 years ago, they are just sold directly to OEMs now. I don't think those MCZs are fake, either - MCZs are renowned for their high sensitivity to heat.

I know these premature failures might make those Panasonic capacitors seem incompetent but the secret to attaining a good chemical stability relative to electrolyte maintaining low resistivity with a good dielectric constant and strength is a highly guarded one and it's no easy feat, especially if you consider how many different water-based solvents exist out there (the different combinations of acids, alkalis, or salts might not always have great long term stability). Electrolytic capacitors employ and obtain conduction by way of ions which makes it very difficult to lower the ESR and increase the conductivity. Solid state capacitors (polymers) do this by way of electrons and their conductivity and stability is much, much better - as far as conductivity goes, the improvement is in the order of over a hundred fold.

Your Panasonic capacitors of many decades ago probably haven't failed because they employ different types of electrolyte. Electrolyte in capacitors can be roughly grouped into three types:

1. Glycol or borax solutions. These kinds of liquid electrolyte have a low amount of water relative to the very low ESR capacitors but still have a long term unwanted reaction to the water, resulting in dry out (very long, though - think 20 to 30 years, by which point the rubber bungs would decompose and the electrolyte would leak anyway).
2. Organic solutions such as Y-butyrolactone or something similar. These are essentially free of water and have very good characteristics and long term stability.
3. Water-base electrolyte with roughly half of its content or most of it comprising of the H2O needed to lower the ESR and increase conductivity.

Of course, there's always a chance that they could be fake. Fakes with concentric, cheap, bullseye flat bungs in place of the thicker bungs have been spotted on genuine motherboards before so anything is possible. But I don't think they're fake.
Edited by Wester547 - 5/20/15 at 1:41pm
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