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[Guru3D] AMD Readies 14nm Zen - up-to 40 percent faster IPC performance - Page 22

post #211 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

not worth it though, i'm aiming for a 4core skylake non-K below $200.
if 4core/4thread would be about just below haswell, then why bother when skylake is around 20% faster.
in which case, its either a 6core Zen or i'm sticking with skylake, at least i get to have a highly efficient chip.

ohh and 6core/12thread zen over $400 is overpriced, considering 6core haswell is priced below $400. thumb.gif
and on that note, just because it suddenly became competitive, doesn't mean they have to follow intel SRP, intel's pricing is overpriced already.
Skylake won't be 20% faster outside of specific situations like Haswell vs. Ivy. 4C/8T Zen will have a decent advantage against the i5s due to having SMT, albeit trailing in pure ST slightly. It's essentially a "new" power efficient last gen i7 for the price of a locked i5 with a cheaper and more versatile platform.

I don't know what the last sentence of yours is about, I'm not expecting them to retail for quite that much. If anything there should be a slight undercut across the board save for the entirely missing low end that's covered by APUs and the exception of the top end model or two, much along the veins of 4930k and 4960X. I'm hoping there will be a cheap 8C model available.
Edited by Tojara - 5/20/15 at 6:32am
post #212 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

Skylake won't be 20% faster outside of specific situations like Haswell vs. Ivy. 4C/8T Zen will have a decent advantage against the i5s due to having SMT, albeit trailing in pure ST slightly. It's essentially a "new" power efficient last gen i7 for the price of a locked i5 with a cheaper and more versatile platform.

how is it that when AMD says "40% IPC boost" you guys think "its gonna be as fast as Haswell!".
and when Intel says "up to 30% IPC boost" everyone suddenly thinks "doubt it's even 15% faster than Haswell".

how is AMD's PR stunt any different to intel's. tongue.gif am i missing something here? or is this an AMD fan group?
post #213 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

how is it that when AMD says "40% IPC boost" you guys think "its gonna be as fast as Haswell!".
and when Intel says "up to 30% IPC boost" everyone suddenly thinks "doubt it's even 15% faster than Haswell".

how is AMD's PR stunt any different to intel's. tongue.gif am i missing something here? or is this an AMD fan group?

Because AMD absolutely has to have that boost in order to stay alive, and Intel doesn't... Lol.
Sorry AMD
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Sorry AMD
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post #214 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post

Because AMD absolutely has to have that boost in order to stay alive, and Intel doesn't... Lol.

they absolutely don't have to put their price close to intel's, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

I don't know what the last sentence of yours is about, I'm not expecting them to retail for quite that much. If anything there should be a slight undercut across the board save for the entirely missing low end that's covered by APUs and the exception of the top end model or two, much along the veins of 4930k and 4960X. I'm hoping there will be a cheap 8C model available.
thats why i had said it as such, those people pushing "3x~4x more expensive than your piledriver" is way over their head.

to point out, 6core Zen should stay around $150 otherwise it won't be any better on our cause, why? offering prices near parity doesn't give us crap, look at Nvidia cards (except GTX970).
and as for all these things, i'm not even hoping for parity for haswell, heck i'd settle for parity with sandy bridge so long as it's priced 10%~20% more cost effective than piledriver.
Edited by epic1337 - 5/20/15 at 6:40am
post #215 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

how is it that when AMD says "40% IPC boost" you guys think "its gonna be as fast as Haswell!".
and when Intel says "up to 30% IPC boost" everyone suddenly thinks "doubt it's even 15% faster than Haswell".

how is AMD's PR stunt any different to intel's. tongue.gif am i missing something here? or is this an AMD fan group?
Sorry but where is this 30% rumour coming from, I haven't heard of it? Isn't the optimistic expectation still 10-15%?
Edited by Tojara - 5/20/15 at 6:54am
post #216 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

Sorry but where is this 30% rumour coming from, I haven't heard of it? Isn't the optimistic expectation still 10-15%?

this one - http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/272718-skylake-s-sisoft-benchmark-confusion-and-30-ipc-improvement-over-haswellupdate/
post #217 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7850K View Post

There's 100's of pages of kaveri info on this forum newer than jan '14.
SR is 10-15% faster single thread than PD

You might want to be more specific with your wording here. Kaveri APU's are actually slower in single thread than the Desktop FX chips based on the piledriver core. Richland which was the APU which used Piledriver cores usually outperformed Kaveri or Steam roller core parts purely because of the clock speed differences. Kaveri took a clock speed hit. Steam Roller itself is faster the piledriver at the same clock speed and only in APU form. The FX desktop Piledriver core still remains supreme in Single thread thanks to its higher clock speeds, large l2 and l3 caches. Overall the improvement from Richland to Kaveri was a wash, because they reduced clock speeds but increased IPC which basically resulted in the same performance.


as for AMD's plan with Zen, they will likely play out like the Phenom 2 era. AMD will offer you 6 cores for the price of 4 intel cores. The Intel parts will have a bit higher single thread, but will get beaten by AMD's Multi Thread. Which you could argue is what they were trying to do with The Bulldozer family cpus. Just the gap in single core performance was entirely too large, and games/apps were just starting to make the change to multi thread. This time around will be much closer in single thread and performance much better in multi threaded workloads. I think after Zen is launched that Intel will begin to offer hexcore CPU's for their Mainstream product lines instead of the current quad core with HT parts. Will be interesting to see how it plays out. AMD has no room for failure.
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post #218 of 334
Not trying to discredit that but SiSoft is rather twitchy about the scores and having new instructions there can easily bring massive improvements you won't see in actual use. I'm sticking with the 15% rumour before something more concrete comes up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they absolutely don't have to put their price close to intel's, lol.
thats why i had said it as such, those people pushing "3x~4x more expensive than your piledriver" is way over their head.

to point out, 6core Zen should stay around $150 otherwise it won't be any better on our cause, why? offering prices near parity doesn't give us crap, look at Nvidia cards (except GTX970).
and as for all these things, i'm not even hoping for parity for haswell, heck i'd settle for parity with sandy bridge so long as it's priced 10%~20% more cost effective than piledriver.
I'm expecting they won't be much better. Performance parity on Ivy with a slight ~10% price+unlocked SKUs undercut against competing Intel chips. They won't be as cheap for MT as Vishera is, they couldn't get even $200 for the flagship 16T SKU otherwise. That won't be a big issue since Vishera absolutely dominates that market, the problem is poor ST.
post #219 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

how is it that when AMD says "40% IPC boost" you guys think "its gonna be as fast as Haswell!".
and when Intel says "up to 30% IPC boost" everyone suddenly thinks "doubt it's even 15% faster than Haswell".

how is AMD's PR stunt any different to intel's. tongue.gif am i missing something here? or is this an AMD fan group?

Because AMD with Zen changes design paradigm, the whole core is being redone from the ground with a focus on ST performance, its logic gets almost doubled vs BD famiy etc while intel usually just polishes fine details. Expectations are day and night for those very specific reasons, nothing to do with fan groups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

There is no reason for them to have non-SMT products other than to handicap themselves or differentiate their product line. SMT uses so little die are that having all four SMT logic units defective is far less likely than having a single core be defective, which is the reason why all Zen-based products will have it enabled.

This is what I expect too. There is no reason for AMD to follow Intel's segmentation like that. On the contrary, by offering their full range with hyperthreading enabled,they put pressure to intel from entry level all the way to desktop i5.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post



to point out, 6core Zen should stay around $150 otherwise it won't be any better on our cause, why? offering prices near parity doesn't give us crap, look at Nvidia cards (except GTX970).
and as for all these things, i'm not even hoping for parity for haswell, heck i'd settle for parity with sandy bridge so long as it's priced 10%~20% more cost effective than piledriver.

One of the main reasons AMD is going SMT is so they will not have to sell their multicore chips so cheap ,ever again. Really, If you expect 6C/12T Zen to retail for around 150, be prepared for huge disappointment. At least you should not be surprised when you see them going for double that amount. Hell, even top of the line Thubans used to retail for nearly 300 just fine,not too long ago.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 5/20/15 at 7:11am
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post #220 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

to point out, 6core Zen should stay around $150 otherwise it won't be any better on our cause, why? offering prices near parity doesn't give us crap, look at Nvidia cards (except GTX970).
and as for all these things, i'm not even hoping for parity for haswell, heck i'd settle for parity with sandy bridge so long as it's priced 10%~20% more cost effective than piledriver.

You really think AMD has consumer best interest in mind ?
They have there own interest in mind first... remember launch of FX-9590 , how much did it cost at first 600$ or something stupid like that.
Nether AMD or Intel are your friends ... amd is selling cheap because they have to... if they get semi competitive CPU they will price them along side intels prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Because AMD with Zen changes design paradigm, the whole core is being redone from the ground with a focus on ST performance, its logic gets almost doubled vs BD famiy etc while intel usually just polishes fine details. Expectations are day and night for those very specific reasons, nothing to do with fan groups.
This is what I expect too. There is no reason for AMD to follow Intel's segmentation like that. On the contrary, by offering their full range with hyperthreading enabled,they put pressure to intel from entry level all the way to desktop i5.
One of the main reasons AMD is going SMT is so they will not have to sell their multicore chips so cheap ,ever again. Really, If you expect 6C/12T Zen to retail for around 150, be prepared for huge disappointment. At least you should not be surprised when you see them going for double that amount. Hell, even top of the line Thubans used to retail for nearly 300 just fine,not too long ago.

And when i say 4 core 4 thread cpu ofc it is SMT chip it just has chip logic that handles additional threads disabled... just like with i5s.

Ok maybe it wont happen like that... maybe they offer FX AM4 zen chips as pure CPU chips, every single one with full SMT and start with really high performance and price points, that is sound strategy, offer same cores with more threads in mid range segment ... lets say they start at 200$ with 4 core 8 thread chips... that implies that sub 200$ will be left over to 2core 4 thread APUs. It makes sense i agree and is possibility.

MY POINT is that people unrealistically expect AMD to give them cheap 6 and 8 cores (12 to 16 threads) ... 6 core zen with SMT for 150$ ? I wish, but i would not hope for that because you will be disappointed. Double that number to curb your enthusiasm smile.gif
Original buldozer 8 core chips were priced close to sandy bridge i7 chips and that was with failure design... again remember original FX-9590 pricing ? 500 or 600$ or something like that.

If AMD makes something better and want to compete thought entire high end desktop market they will want to compete with intel extreme platform. 8 core 16 thread chips will be priced to compete with that. Ok maybe they will try to undercut them by huge margin and if zen is good intel drops prices resulting in overal 30% cheaper chips but it are still far higher prices then what people expect here.

I can guarantee you if AMD has good design on ZEN cpus they will sell them for MUCH more then they are selling buldozer and piledriver CPUs... sure maybe they will sell 8core 16 thead cpu for 400$ or something like that but it will probably be with VERY low clocks. They will probably have same CPU with much higher clocks and overclock sealing selling for double that amount smile.gif

example:

Lets assume average stock clocks of zen (for entire family of chips) is 3.5ghz.
They sell 3.3ghz 8core 16 thread for 399$
But also they might have 4.5ghz 8core 16 thread of same chip for 599$ ++ ... same chip just heavily overclocked (above 95tdp) to compete with Intels highest performance chips on extreme x99 or 109 platforms.


Again that is if AMD wants to compete for entire desktop market... if zen is really good design (not better then intel but close). If they only want to compete with regular i7 chips with 8 core 16 thread chips (vs 4 core 8 thread i7) then they are doomed and zen will probably be only slightly less of an disappointment then buldozer. I hope that that doesnt happen. I hope that 4core 8 thread Zen will be close to 4core 8thread intel, slightly slower but cheaper a bit higher then regular i5s in price but cheaper then i7s offering extra threads over i5s and lower price then i7s... intel has small gap there i think AMD they will strike there hard.
Edited by Stormscion - 5/20/15 at 7:46am
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