Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [Guru3D] AMD Readies 14nm Zen - up-to 40 percent faster IPC performance
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Guru3D] AMD Readies 14nm Zen - up-to 40 percent faster IPC performance - Page 23

post #221 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

Because AMD with Zen changes design paradigm, the whole core is being redone from the ground with a focus on ST performance, its logic gets almost doubled vs BD famiy etc while intel usually just polishes fine details. Expectations are day and night for those very specific reasons, nothing to do with fan groups.
This is what I expect too. There is no reason for AMD to follow Intel's segmentation like that. On the contrary, by offering their full range with hyperthreading enabled,they put pressure to intel from entry level all the way to desktop i5.
One of the main reasons AMD is going SMT is so they will not have to sell their multicore chips so cheap ,ever again. Really, If you expect 6C/12T Zen to retail for around 150, be prepared for huge disappointment. At least you should not be surprised when you see them going for double that amount. Hell, even top of the line Thubans used to retail for nearly 300 just fine,not too long ago.

6 core 12 thread will be at least 350$ at launch if not more

unless they dont come even close to ivy/haswel performance / per watt and single thread performance. In that case it will be epic fail on AMD part... dont think they can afford that at this point.
post #222 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormscion View Post

And when i say 4 core 4 thread cpu ofc it is SMT chip it just has chip logic that handles additional threads disabled... just like with i5s.

This is exactly where we disagree. I predict AMD pitting a full 4C/8Τ chip against intel 4C/4T solutions. Against intel 4C/8T mainstream i7s, they will most likely pit a 6C/12T chip, their 8C/16T flagship will be going up against i7-6930k or whatsamacallit and they will have nothing against intel's 8C/16T behemoth pricewise, because only the absolute best can attempt to fetch a premium and I don't see them having it. Zen will have no chips with SMT deactivated.
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
post #223 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

One of the main reasons AMD is going SMT is so they will not have to sell their multicore chips so cheap ,ever again. Really, If you expect 6C/12T Zen to retail for around 150, be prepared for huge disappointment. At least you should not be surprised when you see them going for double that amount. Hell, even top of the line Thubans used to retail for nearly 300 just fine,not too long ago.

i'm only expecting 6core zen to perform very close to an i5 skylake for $150, how would that be a disappointment?
i would've bought FX-8320E a long time ago if there was any decent MATX 990FX board out there.

PS: look at my CPU, then tell me FX-8320E isn't a worthy upgrade.
Edited by epic1337 - 5/20/15 at 7:29am
post #224 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

i'm only expecting 6core zen to perform very close to an i5 skylake for $150, how would that be a disappointment?
i would've bought FX-8320E a long time ago if there was any decent MATX 990X board out there.

PS: look at my CPU, then tell me FX-8320E isn't a worthy upgrade.

A 6C/12T zen wouldn't be "very close to an i5 skylake, it would blow it out of the water in MT while being relatively close in ST. For those reasons it will be quite more expensive.
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
post #225 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

A 6C/12T zen wouldn't be "very close to an i5 skylake, it would blow it out of the water in MT while being relatively close in ST. For those reasons it will be quite more expensive.

relatively close to skylake in ST would mean at the bare minimum 10% faster than Haswell, no thats just pure optimism.
Zen < Haswell IPC < Skylake IPC, if Zen is 5% behind IPC against Haswell, then Zen will be around 20% behind Skylake in IPC.

but no, i'm only expecting parity to Sandy Bridge, considering even Steamroller is 30% behind Sandy Bridge still.
post #226 of 334
If they're going on a similar design (away from the modular design of BD is my meaning) wouldn't they want to compete core for core? I mean i certainly don't mind if i can pick up a 6C/12T or 8C/16T Processor for a 100-300$ less than a 6930k especially if it's near Ivy. Comparison wise that just seems more like their previous strategy with bulldozer/PileDriver. That said if they really are near Ivy this time around even Sandy, they could pretty much play the same game they did back in the day with the XP. Give it a slight reduction in price but still achieve 85-90% of the performance of the competition's offerings.

Of course this is all depends on AMD and Intel's prospective gains on both upcoming CPUs. As said earlier i think if AMD would have any opportune moment to gain some ground or catch up this would be it. It seems clear that Intel is much more focused on efficiency and the mobile sector. I haven't kept up with the road maps so i'm not sure what Broadwell and Skylake are bringing to the table. I know haswell wasn't overly impressive to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

relatively close to skylake in ST would mean at the bare minimum 10% faster than Haswell, no thats just pure optimism.
Zen < Haswell IPC < Skylake IPC, if Zen is 5% behind IPC against Haswell, then Zen will be around 20% behind Skylake in IPC.

but no, i'm only expecting parity to Sandy Bridge, considering even Steamroller is 30% behind Sandy Bridge still.

That's fair enough, we'll just have to see. I'd take SB ST performance but i really hope they match Ivy at least.
Green Envy
(12 items)
 
 
Purple Haze
(12 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-3770k @ 4.5ghz  Gigabyte G1.Sniper 3 EVGA 780 Classified EVGA 780 Classified  
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16GB GSkill Ripjaws DDR3 2133 WD Raptor Cooler Master Glacer 240L Windows 7 64-Bit Home premium 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VG248QE Logitech G15 Seasonic 850w M12II Phantek Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8320 @ 4.7ghz Asus Sabertooth 990FX EVGA 780 Classified 8Gb Mushkin Enhanced Blackline DDR3 2000 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
WD 750Gb EK supremacy Clean CSQ Asus 23" Seasonic 12SII 850W Gold 
Case
Phanteks Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R5 1600x Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming-ITX Diamond 7970 G Skill DDR4 3200 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Western Digital Black  Samsung 850 Evo  Cooler Master Glacer 240L Black Ice Nemesis L-Series 240 Stealth 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
EK-FC7970 CSQ Mayhems X1 UV Purple Corsair SF600 Fractal Design Define S Nano  
  hide details  
Reply
Green Envy
(12 items)
 
 
Purple Haze
(12 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-3770k @ 4.5ghz  Gigabyte G1.Sniper 3 EVGA 780 Classified EVGA 780 Classified  
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16GB GSkill Ripjaws DDR3 2133 WD Raptor Cooler Master Glacer 240L Windows 7 64-Bit Home premium 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VG248QE Logitech G15 Seasonic 850w M12II Phantek Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8320 @ 4.7ghz Asus Sabertooth 990FX EVGA 780 Classified 8Gb Mushkin Enhanced Blackline DDR3 2000 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
WD 750Gb EK supremacy Clean CSQ Asus 23" Seasonic 12SII 850W Gold 
Case
Phanteks Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R5 1600x Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming-ITX Diamond 7970 G Skill DDR4 3200 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Western Digital Black  Samsung 850 Evo  Cooler Master Glacer 240L Black Ice Nemesis L-Series 240 Stealth 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
EK-FC7970 CSQ Mayhems X1 UV Purple Corsair SF600 Fractal Design Define S Nano  
  hide details  
Reply
post #227 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

relatively close to skylake in ST would mean at the bare minimum 10% faster than Haswell, no thats just pure optimism.
Zen < Haswell IPC < Skylake IPC, if Zen is 5% behind IPC against Haswell, then Zen will be around 20% behind Skylake in IPC.

but no, i'm only expecting parity to Sandy Bridge, considering even Steamroller is 30% behind Sandy Bridge still.

You should forget SR comparisons, this is a new core,previous designs cannot put a ceiling of expectations based on their own shortcomings. Let me repeat it once more. Zen is a core that will most likely be built on a process (sammy 14nm FF, 2016) much more advanced than what was used for sandy (intel's 32nm,2010), huge density and efficiency advantage as starting point. It also has bigger FPU and more integer execution units than Sandy. If after all that Zen merely matches SB AMD will be in deep,deep,deep trouble.
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
Mastodon Ryzen
(12 items)
 
HP Z220
(8 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
R7 1800X Asus Crosshair VI Hero Sapphire RX Vega 64 reference Gskill TridentZ 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Pny SSD 240GB Crucial MX100 CM Nepton 280L Win 10 
MonitorPowerCaseMouse
Acer Predator XG270HU Freesync XFX 750W Pro HAF XM Logitech G502 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsCooling
i7 3770 HP Quadro K2000 HP 
OSPowerCaseMouse
Win 7  HP 400W HP CMT RAT 7 
  hide details  
Reply
post #228 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

You should forget SR comparisons, this is a new core,previous designs cannot put a ceiling of expectations based on their own shortcomings. Let me repeat it once more. Zen is a core that will most likely be built on a process (sammy 14nm FF, 2016) much more advanced than what was used for sandy (intel's 32nm,2010), huge density and efficiency advantage as starting point. It also has bigger FPU and more integer execution units than Sandy. If after all that Zen merely matches SB AMD will be in deep,deep,deep trouble.

lol, when AMD itself said "up-to" 40% IPC performance over excavator, which is also an "up-to" 10% faster than steamroller, look at the thread title and first post.
technically speaking, thats "up-to" 55% IPC performance over steamroller, and if we put in a realistic view, "up-to" means "half-of" which is roughly 28% IPC over steamroller on average.

if its 28% IPC over steamroller on average, it might even fall short from Sandy Bridge, but i'm not that pessimistic, i'm at least hoping for Sandy Bridge parity as a "minimum".


and no, deep trouble? i don't even see why would that be the case. they've survived for so long with only Vishera as their front-end.
even just releasing a 30% faster than Vishera at the same or a tiny bit increase in price would give a large influx for them.
IPC parity wouldn't matter so long as they fix their MT scaling, even i7-3930K can compete against i7-4790K.

edit: speaking of which, 6C/12T Zen parity to Sandy Bridge would be identical to i7-3930K, if thats priced at sub $200 that'd be so sweet.
Edited by epic1337 - 5/20/15 at 8:04am
post #229 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

lol, when AMD itself said "up-to" 40% IPC performance over excavator, which is also an "up-to" 10% faster than steamroller, look at the thread title and first post.
technically speaking, thats "up-to" 55% IPC performance over steamroller, and if we put in a realistic view, "up-to" means "half-of" which is roughly 28% IPC over steamroller on average.

if its 28% IPC over steamroller on average, it might even fall short from Sandy Bridge, but i'm not that pessimistic, i'm at least hoping for Sandy Bridge parity as a "minimum".


and no, deep trouble? i don't even see why would that be the case. they've survived for so long with only Vishera as their front-end.
even just releasing a 30% faster than Vishera at the same or a tiny bit increase in price would give a large influx for them.
IPC parity wouldn't matter so long as they fix their MT scaling, even i7-3930K can compete against i7-4790K.

edit: speaking of which, 6C/12T Zen parity to Sandy Bridge would be identical to i7-3930K, if thats priced at sub $200 that'd be so sweet.

I second this, even matching sandy would be a large step for them considering where they've been. They've been staying alive all this time with CPUs that have worse ST performance than their previous generation, barcelona. Sure it was a good bang for the buck multi-threading but overall BD was a complete failure. X6 1100T is still as viable as a highly clocked 8-core vishera. It doesn't get much worse. Sandy Bridge performance while not quite what we want would still be a good gain.
Edited by Blackops_2 - 5/20/15 at 8:27am
Green Envy
(12 items)
 
 
Purple Haze
(12 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-3770k @ 4.5ghz  Gigabyte G1.Sniper 3 EVGA 780 Classified EVGA 780 Classified  
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16GB GSkill Ripjaws DDR3 2133 WD Raptor Cooler Master Glacer 240L Windows 7 64-Bit Home premium 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VG248QE Logitech G15 Seasonic 850w M12II Phantek Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8320 @ 4.7ghz Asus Sabertooth 990FX EVGA 780 Classified 8Gb Mushkin Enhanced Blackline DDR3 2000 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
WD 750Gb EK supremacy Clean CSQ Asus 23" Seasonic 12SII 850W Gold 
Case
Phanteks Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R5 1600x Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming-ITX Diamond 7970 G Skill DDR4 3200 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Western Digital Black  Samsung 850 Evo  Cooler Master Glacer 240L Black Ice Nemesis L-Series 240 Stealth 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
EK-FC7970 CSQ Mayhems X1 UV Purple Corsair SF600 Fractal Design Define S Nano  
  hide details  
Reply
Green Envy
(12 items)
 
 
Purple Haze
(12 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
i7-3770k @ 4.5ghz  Gigabyte G1.Sniper 3 EVGA 780 Classified EVGA 780 Classified  
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
16GB GSkill Ripjaws DDR3 2133 WD Raptor Cooler Master Glacer 240L Windows 7 64-Bit Home premium 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Asus VG248QE Logitech G15 Seasonic 850w M12II Phantek Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX 8320 @ 4.7ghz Asus Sabertooth 990FX EVGA 780 Classified 8Gb Mushkin Enhanced Blackline DDR3 2000 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
WD 750Gb EK supremacy Clean CSQ Asus 23" Seasonic 12SII 850W Gold 
Case
Phanteks Enthoo Pro 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen R5 1600x Fatal1ty AB350 Gaming-ITX Diamond 7970 G Skill DDR4 3200 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingCooling
Western Digital Black  Samsung 850 Evo  Cooler Master Glacer 240L Black Ice Nemesis L-Series 240 Stealth 
CoolingCoolingPowerCase
EK-FC7970 CSQ Mayhems X1 UV Purple Corsair SF600 Fractal Design Define S Nano  
  hide details  
Reply
post #230 of 334
this got me thinking, how experienced is AMD in handling SMT?
the first time Intel took up HyperThreading it went south in terms of power efficiency, and literally caused single-thread IPC to plummet due to cache trashing.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [Guru3D] AMD Readies 14nm Zen - up-to 40 percent faster IPC performance