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[Guru3D] AMD Readies 14nm Zen - up-to 40 percent faster IPC performance - Page 24

post #231 of 334
Ok i made some diagrams to illustrate what i mean.

no1
ZEN lineup priced like this if ZEN is NOT competitive with intel "extreme" line of chips (x99)



no2
ZEN lineup priced like this IF ZEN is competitive across the whole line up from i3 to extreme i7 chips




no.1 Zen is "meh", "ok" at best
no.2 Zen good, it is competitive with intel across whole desktop market.

anything lower then this at launch will mean zen is failure.
I would not expect that.
Edited by Stormscion - 5/20/15 at 8:37am
post #232 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuivamaa View Post

This is exactly where we disagree. I predict AMD pitting a full 4C/8Τ chip against intel 4C/4T solutions. Against intel 4C/8T mainstream i7s, they will most likely pit a 6C/12T chip, their 8C/16T flagship will be going up against i7-6930k or whatsamacallit and they will have nothing against intel's 8C/16T behemoth pricewise, because only the absolute best can attempt to fetch a premium and I don't see them having it. Zen will have no chips with SMT deactivated.

We dont disagree i agree with you, it makes sense and it is likely to happen, i would like that in fact.
But turning off SMT is always option... at this point it all depends how got uarch is.
post #233 of 334
5820K is selling at low price.

There is noway AMD can sell hex core higher than 5820K if they areonly manage to reach 3930K/4930K performance. Even we are given the same performance, AMD is knowned as "cheaper solution", so they have to always undercut Intel.

I will always pick intel if the performance is same @ the same price.
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post #234 of 334
i still don't like the fact that you guys insist that Zen should be ~20% less cost efficient than Vishera.

Haswell cost efficiency = 100% ( $240 i5-4690K 100% perf)
Zen cost efficiency = 114% ( $200 4c/8t? 95% perf)
vishera cost efficiency = 142% ($135 FX-8320E 80% perf)
114% / 142% = 80%
post #235 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

lol, when AMD itself said "up-to" 40% IPC performance over excavator, which is also an "up-to" 10% faster than steamroller, look at the thread title and first post.
technically speaking, thats "up-to" 55% IPC performance over steamroller, and if we put in a realistic view, "up-to" means "half-of" which is roughly 28% IPC over steamroller on average.

if its 28% IPC over steamroller on average, it might even fall short from Sandy Bridge, but i'm not that pessimistic, i'm at least hoping for Sandy Bridge parity as a "minimum".


and no, deep trouble? i don't even see why would that be the case. they've survived for so long with only Vishera as their front-end.
even just releasing a 30% faster than Vishera at the same or a tiny bit increase in price would give a large influx for them.
IPC parity wouldn't matter so long as they fix their MT scaling, even i7-3930K can compete against i7-4790K.

edit: speaking of which, 6C/12T Zen parity to Sandy Bridge would be identical to i7-3930K, if thats priced at sub $200 that'd be so sweet.
Thing is, they didn't say up to, but for some reason the news sites put it there. The slide this all is stemming from simply says 40% more instructions per clock [versus excavator]. I'm still counting market BS by ignoring the Pd>Ex jump completely when saying Zen will be on par with Ivy while, you're taking the worst case scenario by speaking FP performance only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormscion View Post

We dont disagree i agree with you, it makes sense and it is likely to happen, i would like that in fact.
But turning off SMT is always option... at this point it all depends how got uarch is.
You're at the opposite end of the spectrum against epic, Zen will not beat Skylake nor Haswell core-per-core.
Edited by Tojara - 5/20/15 at 8:46am
post #236 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

Thing is, they didn't say up to, but for some reason the news sites put it there. The slide this all is stemming from simply says 40% more instructions per clock [versus excavator]. I'm still counting market BS by ignoring the Pd>Ex jump completely when saying Zen will be on par with Ivy while, you're taking the worst case scenario by speaking FP performance only.
because being on the lower side of optimism (worst case scenario, but not being pessimistic) would by no means end up disappointing me, but rather surprise me if it actually performed better than expected?

i'd rather take the happy drug, thanks.
post #237 of 334
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

lol, when AMD itself said "up-to" 40% IPC performance over excavator, which is also an "up-to" 10% faster than steamroller, look at the thread title and first post.
technically speaking, thats "up-to" 55% IPC performance over steamroller, and if we put in a realistic view, "up-to" means "half-of" which is roughly 28% IPC over steamroller on average.

if its 28% IPC over steamroller on average, it might even fall short from Sandy Bridge, but i'm not that pessimistic, i'm at least hoping for Sandy Bridge parity as a "minimum".


and no, deep trouble? i don't even see why would that be the case. they've survived for so long with only Vishera as their front-end.
even just releasing a 30% faster than Vishera at the same or a tiny bit increase in price would give a large influx for them.
IPC parity wouldn't matter so long as they fix their MT scaling, even i7-3930K can compete against i7-4790K.

edit: speaking of which, 6C/12T Zen parity to Sandy Bridge would be identical to i7-3930K, if thats priced at sub $200 that'd be so sweet.

From the begining. This is AMD's slide.



It is not "up to", it is 40% flat. Which means on average. Other than that you keep making the same mistake. 40% over EX sounds outlandish to you because you are conditioned with what happened between SB to IB to HW or between PD to SR to EX etc. whereas you should expect a jump more like Prescott to Conroe or more precisely Excavator to Ivy Bridge. Because judging by core design, this is exactly what is happening. Paradigm shift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormscion View Post

We dont disagree i agree with you, it makes sense and it is likely to happen, i would like that in fact.
But turning off SMT is always option... at this point it all depends how got uarch is.

Of course it is an option, and judging by Intel's experience, I am almost certain there will also be an option to switch HT off in BIOS for processors that have it enabled.I just feel that offering CPUs with double the thread count on most price points without them using a large die is far too good a scenario for AMD to pass on.
Edited by Kuivamaa - 5/20/15 at 8:59am
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post #238 of 334
I don't think AMD would be that stupid to price their chips as high as Intel, cuz today AMD has to bring back all those customers that went over Intels and if the price Zen as high as Intel chips having to buy A new AM4 motherboard too, all the customers will have a hard decision to come back to AMDs

AMD are known to be the cheaper solution, and almost all the AMD users, buys their chip for the price and paying SO MUCH attention to performance per se, but to price/performance...
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post #239 of 334
2016 is a long way out... I sure hope the wait is worth it. Minimum Sandy IPC with more relevant instructions please. I'd love a powerful AMD cpu that I can use for my needs now and not silly cherry picked scenarios or what we speculate the future holds lol.

I get that multi-threading is the future. But there are crazy amounts of people who use and will continue to use apps/games that run on 1-2 threads. Those threads need to be beastly and always will.

Let's face it, we need the horsepower to push through old and/or poor optimization. That will not change, ever.
post #240 of 334
I expect a hexa-core (no HT needed rly) for 250$ or less. Everything more than that won't be worth it.
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