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[PCP] NVIDIA Under Attack Again for GameWorks in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Page 11

post #101 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Proof.

Also here is SMS's statement on AMD and ProjectCARS:


When a developer agrees to implementation of gameworks, which takes over shader operations AMD is not allowed to see shader code or even allowed to optimize for it. nor is developer allowed to touch the gameworks code to fully optimize it to the engine unless Nvidia says okay and they still are very hard on what can and cannot be done. It is essentially a blackbox with fancy features, quite draconian really... "We want you to use gameworks but you cannot touch anything unless we say so" is their amazing punchline

We've tried it. Hated it....and said No (At work) and thats essentially jist of it.
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post #102 of 480
Quote:
Also here is SMS's statement on AMD and ProjectCARS:
Quote:
As Ian Bell wrote on the WMD forum when a fan asked him about the performance issues that AMD owners currently face:

“We’ve provided AMD with 20 keys for game testing as they work on the driver side. But you only have to look at the lesser hardware in the consoles to see how optimized we are on AMD based chips.

We’re reaching out to AMD with all of our efforts. We’ve provided them 20 keys as I say. They were invited to work with us for years, looking through company mails the last I can see they (AMD) talked to us was October of last year.

Categorically, Nvidia have not paid us a penny. They have though been very forthcoming with support and co-marketing work at their instigation. We’ve had emails back and forth with them yesterday also. I reiterate that this is mainly a driver issue but we’ll obviously do anything we can from our side.”

AMD’s Corporate Vice President IPG, Roy Taylor, afterwards revealed that AMD is currently working with Slightly Mad Studios in order to fix these performance issues.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with this.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=37389020&postcount=265


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eymar View Post
It's very hard to believe a dev would slow AMD on purpose as it would really cut off your customer base and that can't sit well with employers/investors. However, can't ignore all the data proving that.
It gets worse, far worse. This developer has a history of being NV's BFF.

Full credit to railven from the other thread:

"Reading a little history on the dev side, seems some of these issues (PC specific since there were no early builds for consoles) were known and mentioned. But ignored. There is currently some kind of backlash at the main dev for the series (guess he has a sort of bad-track record, his team was behind Shift 1 and Shift 2, and you guys might remember that game's performance)

PC Games Hardware article:

Need for Speed: Shift Patch 2 - Background
"When Need for Speed: Shift was released, we criticized the surprisingly low performance of AMD's Radeon cards. Especially in scenes with many vehicles the framerate was bad - no matter if the resolution was set to 800 x 600, 1920 x 1200 or any other resolution. The first time the racing game was updated, the problem was not solved, but the second patch for Need for Speed: Shift delivers more frames per second - according to the readme because of "Improved ATI graphics card support”. The reason for the up to now poor performance of Radeon cards has not been unveiled although rumors say that certain Shader routines had not been optimized. Honi soit qui mal y pense - Shift is part of Nvidia's TWIMTBP program."

"Need for Speed: Shift Patch 2 accelerates Radeon graphics cards"

Pure magic right here....check this out.

"In order to show the huge performance benefit for Radeon cards delivered by the patch, we race against 15 computer opponents on "Brands Hatch GP” in broad daylight. We record the framerate for 30 seconds. Without the patch a Radeon HD 5850 wasn't able to exceed 45 fps on average at 1280 x 1024 or 1680 x 1050 (each with 4x MSAA and 16:1 AF), but the update to version 1.02 the performance is increased by 44 percent."



TWIMTPB title = horrendous performance on AMD cards, but yo yo yo, AMD drivers - they suck! Go magic patch, go!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 96Firebird View Post
RS, perhaps that should all go in the Project CARS thread?

You may have thought you were, I thought it was that thread when I was posting earlier...
Without going into too much depth on Project CARS itself, the point here is we have a history of developer bias that favours NV as is and this obviously continued with GW in Project CARS as the game's physics is based on PhysX that is offloaded to the GPU for NV only. That's damn biased if you ask me. GW is looking worse and worse by the day.
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post #103 of 480
Its not that nvidia is gimping AMD within the code, the shaders in gameworks titles are fully optimized to NVIDIA GPU and AMD is NOT allowed to even SEE THEM. what becomes something simple AMD could have done, becomes a hike to mt. Everest thanks to them. Thats pretty much it.

Devs still optimize for both sides, but because of GW code lockdown it is very limited for AMD.
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post #104 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post


Also here is SMS's statement on AMD and ProjectCARS:
Quote:
As Ian Bell wrote on the WMD forum when a fan asked him about the performance issues that AMD owners currently face:

“We’ve provided AMD with 20 keys for game testing as they work on the driver side. But you only have to look at the lesser hardware in the consoles to see how optimized we are on AMD based chips.

We’re reaching out to AMD with all of our efforts. We’ve provided them 20 keys as I say. They were invited to work with us for years, looking through company mails the last I can see they (AMD) talked to us was October of last year.

Categorically, Nvidia have not paid us a penny. They have though been very forthcoming with support and co-marketing work at their instigation. We’ve had emails back and forth with them yesterday also. I reiterate that this is mainly a driver issue but we’ll obviously do anything we can from our side.”

AMD’s Corporate Vice President IPG, Roy Taylor, afterwards revealed that AMD is currently working with Slightly Mad Studios in order to fix these performance issues.

FWIW apparently it was found "[there] have seen lots of correspondence between AMD and ourselves as late as March and again yesterday." (Source)

I'll just go ahead and post the updated version of said post:
Quote:
Looking through company mails the last I can see they (AMD) talked to us was October of last year. I'm holding an internal investigation now as I'm seriously pissed at this allegation.

Categorically, Nvidia have not paid us a penny. They have though been very forthcoming with support and co-marketing work at their instigation.

Edit - More info below. Lot's of communications with them around March and more yesterday.

Gains that were made with an earlier driver they released were lost in a later release. Our internal analysis shows only very marginal gains available from our side (around 1%) with an excessive amount of work.

We've had emails back and forth with them yesterday also. I reiterate that this is mainly a driver issue but we'll obviously do anything we can from our side."

Some great gains we saw from an earlier driver they released have been lost in a later driver they released. So I'd say driver is where we start.

Again, if there's anything we can do we will.

I've now conducted my mini investigation and have seen lots of correspondence between AMD and ourselves as late as March and again yesterday.

The software render person says that AMD drivers create too much of a load on the CPU. The PhysX runs on the CPU in this game for AMD users. The PhysX makes 600 calculations per second on the CPU. Basically the AMD drivers + PhysX running at 600 calculations per second is killing performance in the game. The person responsible for it is freaking awesome. So I'm not angry. But this is the current workaround without all the sensationalism.

The best advice I can give while we work with AMD is to reduce settings which influence CPU load. Specifically in this order:

Shadow Detail -> Medium
Reflections -> Medium
Environment Map-> Medium
Car Detail -> Medium or High
post #105 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyris View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Proof.

Also here is SMS's statement on AMD and ProjectCARS:

When a developer agrees to implementation of gameworks, which takes over shader operations AMD is not allowed to see shader code or even allowed to optimize for it. nor is developer allowed to touch the gameworks code to fully optimize it to the engine unless Nvidia says okay and they still are very hard on what can and cannot be done. It is essentially a blackbox with fancy features, quite draconian really... "We want you to use gameworks but you cannot touch anything unless we say so" is their amazing punchline

We've tried it. Hated it....and said No (At work) and thats essentially jist of it.

GameWorks is not a black box (or anymore as of March last year), developers have access to the source code, assuming they paid their licensing dues.
They are allowed to fully edit that source code. They are allowed to make it work as good as they want on AMD hardware.
They can't share it with AMD, ONLY, if AMD doesn't also have a license. Which they are allowed to receive, as nVidia as offered publicly.
GameWorks works well on AMD hardware on the consoles.
That doesn't prevent them from spending time working on AMD specific code or using AMD specific resources for AMD hardware. So if the developer only has one code path, i.e. GameWorks, that's what they have. If they reached out to AMD a half dozen times and gotten no support then the developers use the code they have. It obviously isn't optimized for AMD hardware out of the box, that is AMDs job to get in there and provide feature sets and code samples or code reviews.

AMD simply aren't providing the same level of support.

I ask for valid proof. I get more and more elaborate conspiracies that the developer and nVidia are in cahoots to destroy AMD.

By the way, everything claimed of nVidia's GameWorks performance inhibiting code is extremely illegal, and if it true would net AMD millions/billions. So where is that conclusive proof or AMD's lawsuit if they have proof of their claims?
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnek View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post


Also here is SMS's statement on AMD and ProjectCARS:
Quote:
As Ian Bell wrote on the WMD forum when a fan asked him about the performance issues that AMD owners currently face:

“We’ve provided AMD with 20 keys for game testing as they work on the driver side. But you only have to look at the lesser hardware in the consoles to see how optimized we are on AMD based chips.

We’re reaching out to AMD with all of our efforts. We’ve provided them 20 keys as I say. They were invited to work with us for years, looking through company mails the last I can see they (AMD) talked to us was October of last year.

Categorically, Nvidia have not paid us a penny. They have though been very forthcoming with support and co-marketing work at their instigation. We’ve had emails back and forth with them yesterday also. I reiterate that this is mainly a driver issue but we’ll obviously do anything we can from our side.”

AMD’s Corporate Vice President IPG, Roy Taylor, afterwards revealed that AMD is currently working with Slightly Mad Studios in order to fix these performance issues.

FWIW apparently it was found "[there] have seen lots of correspondence between AMD and ourselves as late as March and again yesterday." (Source)

I'll just go ahead and post the updated version of said post:
Quote:
Looking through company mails the last I can see they (AMD) talked to us was October of last year. I'm holding an internal investigation now as I'm seriously pissed at this allegation.

Categorically, Nvidia have not paid us a penny. They have though been very forthcoming with support and co-marketing work at their instigation.

Edit - More info below. Lot's of communications with them around March and more yesterday.

Gains that were made with an earlier driver they released were lost in a later release. Our internal analysis shows only very marginal gains available from our side (around 1%) with an excessive amount of work.

We've had emails back and forth with them yesterday also. I reiterate that this is mainly a driver issue but we'll obviously do anything we can from our side."

Some great gains we saw from an earlier driver they released have been lost in a later driver they released. So I'd say driver is where we start.

Again, if there's anything we can do we will.

I've now conducted my mini investigation and have seen lots of correspondence between AMD and ourselves as late as March and again yesterday.

The software render person says that AMD drivers create too much of a load on the CPU. The PhysX runs on the CPU in this game for AMD users. The PhysX makes 600 calculations per second on the CPU. Basically the AMD drivers + PhysX running at 600 calculations per second is killing performance in the game. The person responsible for it is freaking awesome. So I'm not angry. But this is the current workaround without all the sensationalism.

The best advice I can give while we work with AMD is to reduce settings which influence CPU load. Specifically in this order:

Shadow Detail -> Medium
Reflections -> Medium
Environment Map-> Medium
Car Detail -> Medium or High

Thank you for the update, I hadn't seen that, but do we have the source from Ian Bell?

It still looks like a recent driver changed by AMD caused the performance tank? Can anyone confirm?
Edited by RagingCain - 5/17/15 at 3:44pm
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post #106 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

GameWorks is not a black box (or anymore as of March last year), developers have access to the source code, assuming they paid their licensing dues.
They are allowed to fully edit that source code. They are allowed to make it work as good as they want on AMD hardware.
They can't share it with AMD, ONLY, if AMD doesn't also have a license. Which they are allowed to receive, as nVidia as offered publicly.
GameWorks works well on AMD hardware on the consoles.
That doesn't prevent them from spending time working on AMD specific code or using AMD specific resources for AMD hardware. So if the developer only has one code path, i.e. GameWorks, that's what they have. If they reached out to AMD a half dozen times and gotten no support then the developers use the code they have. It obviously isn't optimized for AMD hardware out of the box, that is AMDs job to get in there and provide feature sets and code samples or code reviews.

AMD simply aren't providing the same level of support.

I ask for valid proof. I get more and more elaborate conspiracies that the developer and nVidia are in cahoots to destroy AMD.

By the way, everything claimed of nVidia's GameWorks performance inhibiting code is extremely illegal, and if it true would net AMD millions/billions. So where is that proof / lawsuit?
Thank you for the update, I hadn't seen that, but do we have the source from Ian Bell?

It still looks like a recent driver changed by AMD caused the performance tank? Can anyone confirm?

the blackbox is shader code specifically, the icing on the top of the cake sure...you can eat it but that, nope. oh and devs and nvidia are not in cahoots to destroy amd... I pretty much explained it in another post i bolded so people realize that, it just delays amds ability to come back with something to use with their own arch properly.
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post #107 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyris View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

GameWorks is not a black box (or anymore as of March last year), developers have access to the source code, assuming they paid their licensing dues.
They are allowed to fully edit that source code. They are allowed to make it work as good as they want on AMD hardware.
They can't share it with AMD, ONLY, if AMD doesn't also have a license. Which they are allowed to receive, as nVidia as offered publicly.
GameWorks works well on AMD hardware on the consoles.
That doesn't prevent them from spending time working on AMD specific code or using AMD specific resources for AMD hardware. So if the developer only has one code path, i.e. GameWorks, that's what they have. If they reached out to AMD a half dozen times and gotten no support then the developers use the code they have. It obviously isn't optimized for AMD hardware out of the box, that is AMDs job to get in there and provide feature sets and code samples or code reviews.

AMD simply aren't providing the same level of support.

I ask for valid proof. I get more and more elaborate conspiracies that the developer and nVidia are in cahoots to destroy AMD.

By the way, everything claimed of nVidia's GameWorks performance inhibiting code is extremely illegal, and if it true would net AMD millions/billions. So where is that proof / lawsuit?
Thank you for the update, I hadn't seen that, but do we have the source from Ian Bell?

It still looks like a recent driver changed by AMD caused the performance tank? Can anyone confirm?

the blackbox is shader code specifically, the icing on the top of the cake sure...you can eat it but that, nope. oh and devs and nvidia are not in cahoots to destroy amd... I pretty much explained it in another post i bolded so people realize that, it just delays amds ability to come back with something to use with their own arch properly.

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about, can you explain this part:
"the blackbox is shader code specifically"

Because GameWorks is not black box.
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post #108 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about, can you explain this part:
"the blackbox is shader code specifically"

Because GameWorks is not black box.

The license does not grant access to everything, the license still restricts you, its circumstantial. You can optimize its usage into the engine if need-be however beyond that there is not much else for you to do when talking about amd because amd can never see the code you did yourself even to optimize. Dont have the money, dont have the access.

How is that not a blackbox? They are not some evil demonic being but it is what it is.

AMD is not allowed to ever see gameworks code in any form. This still stands
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post #109 of 480
Wrong thread
Edited by xutnubu - 5/17/15 at 4:16pm
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Originally Posted by Feyris View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about, can you explain this part:
"the blackbox is shader code specifically"

Because GameWorks is not black box.

The license does not grant access to everything, the license still restricts you, its circumstantial. You can optimize its usage into the engine if need-be however beyond that there is not much else for you to do when talking about amd because amd can never see the code you did yourself even to optimize. Dont have the money, dont have the access.

How is that not a blackbox? They are not some evil demonic being but it is what it is.

AMD is not allowed to ever see gameworks code in any form. This still stands

The license for source code is available to all including AMD, but it isnt free. Thats not a black box environment. Thats more of whats called a pay wall.
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Snowdevil
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