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[PCP] NVIDIA Under Attack Again for GameWorks in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Page 25

post #241 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryDemon View Post

You convinced me. You are completely right. CDPR sold out. I wish I hadn't pre-ordered Witcher3. I'm totally going to boycott playing the game until the Fur/Hair FX perform as well on AMD cards as Nvidia cards.
Is this offtopic goalpost shifting rant supposed to be sarcasm? I am a fan of the series, (even though I work for a competing games company) and preordered it myself. As long as nvidia features and optimizations are not baked in the game and I am able to switch them off , i am fine. What is not fine is cdpr advertising my hardware as recommended and delivering to me, their customer , a game that runs like a dog or equal to another vendor's hardware tiers below my own. I trust them, they got my money, if they fail me I will call them out or even boycott them.
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post #242 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

You don't think that if the game is still broken for AMD after gameworks features have been completely disabled it might be the fault of AMD's drivers or developer relations / pre-release support?

I mean take watch dogs. AMD made huge amounts of noise about it being a gameworks title. But in reality the only features that were gameworks in that were NV specific AA methods and HBAO+. HBAO+ had pretty much identical performance hit on both NV and AMD. And slightly after AMD had made the big stink about it publicly they released a performance driver that improved performance by around 30%.

Does that really sound like it was gameworks in that case ruining their performance? Gameworks features with identical performance hits on both teams and a performance driver only days after launch? And then it's GW's (the same GW that can't be optimized) fault? Really?

This has been the case for ATI card since I can remember and why I refuse to switch away from NVidia... I'm not saying NVidia doesn't have issues every so often either but AMD/ATI cards have always had issues with drivers, yet people want to complain about how you get what you pay for. You want high end you pay high end, that is a fact of life people... deal with it. Buy sub-par you get sub-par.
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post #243 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by bratas View Post

This has been the case for ATI card since I can remember and why I refuse to switch away from NVidia... I'm not saying NVidia doesn't have issues every so often either but AMD/ATI cards have always had issues with drivers, yet people want to complain about how you get what you pay for. You want high end you pay high end, that is a fact of life people... deal with it. Buy sub-par you get sub-par.

Yeah,because you know every game that comes out should have fully optimized drivers from day one. rolleyes.gif
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post #244 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Takla View Post

you can't in Project Cars. the whole game was built with and around Nvidia Gameworks, with the developers knowing it wont run as good on AMD cards.

so to all, please direct your hate once again to lazy developer, as to be expected from an early access game.

Or not.
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

London, May 18, 2015: For the past few days, erroneous information posted on Reddit and other websites has spread misinformation with regards to Project CARS’ performance on systems using AMD GPUs.

To correct the wrongful assumptions regarding Project CARS’ performance on AMD GPUs, the MADNESS engine and the degree of involvement from our third-party technical partners, Slightly Mad Studios feel compelled to point out the following facts:

Project CARS is not a GameWorks product. We have a good working relationship with nVidia, as we do with AMD, but we have our own render technology which covers everything we need.

• NVidia are not "sponsors" of the project. The company has not received, and would not expect, financial assistance from third party hardware companies.

• The MADNESS engine runs PhysX at only 50Hz and not at 600Hz as mentioned in several articles

• The MADNESS engine uses PhysX for collision detection and dynamic objects, which is a small part of the overall physics systems

• The MADNESS engine does not use PhysX for the SETA tyre model or for the chassis constraint solver (our two most expensive physics sub-systems)

• The MADNESS engine does not use PhysX for the AI systems or for raycasting, we use a bespoke optimised solution for those

• The physics systems run completely independently of the rendering and main game threads and utilises 2 cores at 600Hz

• The physics threading does not interact with the rendering, it is a push system sending updated positional information to the render bridge at 600Hz

• Any performance difference with PhysX would not be reflected with differences in comparing rendering frame rates. There is no interaction between PhysX and the rendering

• Overall, PhysX uses less than 10% of all physics thread CPU on PC. It is a very small part of the physics system so would not make a visual difference if run on the CPU or GPU

• Direct involvement with both nVidia and AMD has been fruitful in assisting with the game performance at various stages of development. Both AMD and nVidia have had access to working builds of the game throughout development, and they have both tested builds and reported their results and offered suggestions for performance improvements.

• Testing of the game with different driver versions has produced a variety of performance results on both nVidia and AMD hardware. This is entirely to be expected as driver changes cannot always be tested on every game and every card, and this is the reason why both companies produce game-specific driver profiles, to ensure that they can get the best out of the game.

• Project CARS does not use nVidia specific particle technology - the system we use is a modified version of the same technology we used on the Need for Speed : Shift and Shift Unleashed games, and was entirely developed in-house. The reason the performance drops when there are a lot of particles on screen is simply because processing a large number of particles is very expensive.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/243705/Project_CARS_On_AMD_GPUs__Clarification.php

And before anyone jumps to conclusions, saying Physx doesn't necessarily mean GPU-accelarated Physx.
post #245 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwoodz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by bratas View Post

This has been the case for ATI card since I can remember and why I refuse to switch away from NVidia... I'm not saying NVidia doesn't have issues every so often either but AMD/ATI cards have always had issues with drivers, yet people want to complain about how you get what you pay for. You want high end you pay high end, that is a fact of life people... deal with it. Buy sub-par you get sub-par.

Yeah,because you know every game that comes out should have fully optimized drivers from day one. rolleyes.gif

I personally would like that.

Nvidia have been doing that lately and it honestly is nice. Although they are marketing it like this is a new thing... in the words of Chris Rock "You are bragging about things you are supposed to do."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Takla View Post

you can't in Project Cars. the whole game was built with and around Nvidia Gameworks, with the developers knowing it wont run as good on AMD cards.

so to all, please direct your hate once again to lazy developer, as to be expected from an early access game.

Or not.
Quote:
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

London, May 18, 2015: For the past few days, erroneous information posted on Reddit and other websites has spread misinformation with regards to Project CARS’ performance on systems using AMD GPUs.

To correct the wrongful assumptions regarding Project CARS’ performance on AMD GPUs, the MADNESS engine and the degree of involvement from our third-party technical partners, Slightly Mad Studios feel compelled to point out the following facts:

Project CARS is not a GameWorks product. We have a good working relationship with nVidia, as we do with AMD, but we have our own render technology which covers everything we need.

• NVidia are not "sponsors" of the project. The company has not received, and would not expect, financial assistance from third party hardware companies.

• The MADNESS engine runs PhysX at only 50Hz and not at 600Hz as mentioned in several articles

• The MADNESS engine uses PhysX for collision detection and dynamic objects, which is a small part of the overall physics systems

• The MADNESS engine does not use PhysX for the SETA tyre model or for the chassis constraint solver (our two most expensive physics sub-systems)

• The MADNESS engine does not use PhysX for the AI systems or for raycasting, we use a bespoke optimised solution for those

• The physics systems run completely independently of the rendering and main game threads and utilises 2 cores at 600Hz

• The physics threading does not interact with the rendering, it is a push system sending updated positional information to the render bridge at 600Hz

• Any performance difference with PhysX would not be reflected with differences in comparing rendering frame rates. There is no interaction between PhysX and the rendering

• Overall, PhysX uses less than 10% of all physics thread CPU on PC. It is a very small part of the physics system so would not make a visual difference if run on the CPU or GPU

• Direct involvement with both nVidia and AMD has been fruitful in assisting with the game performance at various stages of development. Both AMD and nVidia have had access to working builds of the game throughout development, and they have both tested builds and reported their results and offered suggestions for performance improvements.

• Testing of the game with different driver versions has produced a variety of performance results on both nVidia and AMD hardware. This is entirely to be expected as driver changes cannot always be tested on every game and every card, and this is the reason why both companies produce game-specific driver profiles, to ensure that they can get the best out of the game.

• Project CARS does not use nVidia specific particle technology - the system we use is a modified version of the same technology we used on the Need for Speed : Shift and Shift Unleashed games, and was entirely developed in-house. The reason the performance drops when there are a lot of particles on screen is simply because processing a large number of particles is very expensive.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/243705/Project_CARS_On_AMD_GPUs__Clarification.php

We can't use those facts, the developers are on the take from nVidia according to people here.
Edited by RagingCain - 5/18/15 at 12:43pm
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post #246 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Or not.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/243705/Project_CARS_On_AMD_GPUs__Clarification.php

And before anyone jumps to conclusions, saying Physx doesn't necessarily mean GPU-accelarated Physx.
Taking evaluative statements based on facts at face value is just the thing anybody needs at this point imho. I marvel how nobody is making any commitments regarding hardware. I mean, there is a standard what every aperture is capable of. Why not make it official?
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post #247 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtcn77 View Post

Taking evaluative statements based on facts at face value is just the thing anybody needs at this point imho. I marvel how nobody is making any commitments regarding hardware. I mean, there is a standard what every aperture is capable of. Why not make it official?

Individually, all those words make sense, but I have no idea what that paragraph is supposed to mean.
post #248 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Individually, all those words make sense, but I have no idea what that paragraph is supposed to mean.
I know. frown.gif
I'm trying to say, it is a tangent at this point whatever evaluation they are making. The performance delivers the message across, words are like sand dunes in the wind.
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post #249 of 480
Problem here is developers are not even allowed to optimise code for gameworks so, it does not matter if cpu phsyx is used or vice versa.


If a game developer is not allowed to optimise, how can amd?

It's like amd has another layer which is causing it to bottleneck because of gameworks.
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post #250 of 480
AMD fans should simply demand that AMD also create exclusive and/or proprietary features and get devs to implement them. I'm very serious here. People purely see gameworks, physx, G-sync as an advantage. AMD's wasting money on stuff like HBM, (the failed) Skybridge project, K12, Never Settle bundles, etc. People want exclusive, unique features that are noticeable. They want stuff that the other side can't give. The reason why people choose Nvidia is exactly because they bring unique features to the table. PhysX is one such example. They were also first with G-sync, and even people who couldn't afford to buy a G-sync monitor were excited for it. Freesync was late, simply because it didn't beat Gsync to the launch. They were also first to offer a first party software suite, GeForce Experience or whatever, with GPU recording. Again, Raptr and GameDVR were late, because they didn't beat Nvidia to the punch. That said, reproducing technologies is still good, since it reduces the amount of unique features that Nvidia has, and reduces the incentive to go with Nvidia. But the fact remains, AMD just doesn't have as many unique technologies as Nvidia. Why is AMD seen as the second best, the budget brand? It's not because of their price. First, AMD is typically in second place, quite literally. As mentioned before, Nvidia was first with G-sync, GE, Gameworks, Physx, FLEX, CUDA, etc. They are consistently the technology leader, this matters for the following reason. Second, at any given time, Nvidia is going to have more unique features because they typically beat AMD to the punch. There are exceptions like GDDR5 and HBM, but Nvidia usually get it the next generation and people forget about it when one side loses its uniqueness. Third, even when AMD has their own technologies they rarely stay exclusive. TressFX? Worked fine on Nvidia cards after some patches. It should have been exclusive to AMD cards. Mantle was given to Khronos as well, but that was originally designed by Johan of EA DICE, so I'm not sure if I can really say AMD was responsible for giving it away. Plus it maintained exclusivity as Mantle, even if it was used to create Vulkan.

I'll be honest. Open is stupid, it's not a selling point. Maybe to the Stallman worshippers on /g/, but not to the mass consumers. Nvidia got it right with PhysX and G-sync and Shadowplay. And they got it right with GameWorks. The concerns about GameWorks hurting AMD performance isn't going to make consumers oppose Nvidia, it's going to make them buy Nvidia to put their concerns to rest.

There is no solution to it. If AMD doesn't want to keep hemorrhaging marketshare they need to do the same thing as Nvidia. So instead of complaining on OCN, AMD fans should contact AMD and demand that AMD come up with their own PhysX, GameWorks, FLEX, etc. and make it exclusive to AMD. How does AMD changes it image? Neutralize Nvidia's uniqueness by reproducing their technologies, then create AMD unique features and keep creating them to stay ahead of Nvidia. AMD is going to go bankrupt dawdling like this.
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