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post #331 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

I think the difference is Mantle was intended to be able to work on competing hardware.
Nvidia never would have supported it though, hence it turned into Vulkan.

Mantle was "said" to be future supported by others. AMD said they "will" make it open.
But after 2 years and something, it was closed to AMD GPUs only with any hints of being open what-so-ever. That is until DX12 showed how useless mantle is.
You must have a strange definition of "useless".
Anyway, Mantle became Vulkan.
Also, AMD showed Microsoft how it worked, because they wanted Microsoft to implement something like it. And they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

I think the difference is Mantle was intended to be able to work on competing hardware.
Nvidia never would have supported it though, hence it turned into Vulkan.
Well who would use a API completely controlled the competition?
Also, to this day mantle is still not open, despite what they promised.
And no, Vulkan and mantle are not the same.
Not in the literal sense. Vulkan is an evolution of Mantle: http://i.imgur.com/aq62YN7.jpg
And it's not controlled by AMD, so now that reason not to use it is gone.
Edited by Apokalipse - 5/19/15 at 4:10am
     
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post #332 of 480
I think they should probably stop the gamerworks stuff for a while as it does not run well on anyone's GPU's

Wait until there are GPU's out that are capable of doing the hair stuff because current ones can't do it very well
post #333 of 480
[/quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by daviejams View Post

I think they should probably stop the gamerworks stuff for a while as it does not run well on anyone's GPU's

Wait until there are GPU's out that are capable of doing the hair stuff because current ones can't do it very well

My opinion is there there IS GPU's out there that can run all this hair stuff pretty well. The more 'closed' system Nvidia has opted for means less people can see the code and make it better. If it was openly available to everyone, a lot more people would be able to contribute to the project and Gameworks would steam ahead technically. Nvidia is shooting themselves in the foot or, more than likely; up to something sinister, by keeping their distance from everyone.

No matter how good NV's R&D is, more people that contribute the faster Gameworks can come along.
post #334 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

You must have a strange definition of "useless".
Anyway, Mantle became Vulkan.
Also, AMD showed Microsoft how it worked, because they wanted Microsoft to implement something like it. And they did.

DX12 development was pushed by both AMD and Nvidia and microsoft themselves from the API microsoft and AMD developed from the xbox one as well as earlier developments, But the ones making the calls are microsoft themselves. AND and Nvidia will have to adjust themselves. AMD "showed" microsoft how it takes 2 times as long and 3 times as hard to make API to rival DX, and how to fail doing so.
Also its development started when DX11.1 came, way before mantle was announced to be in development.
Microsoft delayed it to

AMD's mantle was considered when nvidia came with nvapi a while back. And it was pushed in order to give their GPUs an advantage and an attempted a control over the API for both nvidia and AMD, so nvidia will have harder time adding their own tech into it (without also giving it for free to AMD).

Just to remind you that console API is low level just like mantle or nvapi. It is way older than mantle.
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post #335 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

DX12 development was pushed by both AMD and Nvidia and microsoft themselves from the API microsoft and AMD developed from the xbox one as well as earlier developments, But the ones making the calls are microsoft themselves. AND and Nvidia will have to adjust themselves. AMD "showed" microsoft how it takes 2 times as long and 3 times as hard to make API to rival DX, and how to fail doing so.
Also its development started when DX11.1 came, way before mantle was announced to be in development.
Microsoft delayed it to

AMD's mantle was considered when nvidia came with nvapi a while back. And it was pushed in order to give their GPUs an advantage and an attempted a control over the API for both nvidia and AMD, so nvidia will have harder time adding their own tech into it (without also giving it for free to AMD).

Just to remind you that console API is low level just like mantle or nvapi. It is way older than mantle.
DX12 only became a thing after Mantle was announced, until then we were having rumors about DX 11.2 or 11.3.
Quote:
AMD "showed" microsoft how it takes 2 times as long and 3 times as hard to make API to rival DX, and how to fail doing so.
AMD did not fail, Mantle did not fail as DX12 does exactly the same thing, Mantle is what drove PC gaming foreword.
post #336 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

You must have a strange definition of "useless".
Anyway, Mantle became Vulkan.
Also, AMD showed Microsoft how it worked, because they wanted Microsoft to implement something like it. And they did.

DX12 development was pushed by both AMD and Nvidia and microsoft themselves from the API
There was always going to be a "DX12" no matter what, because Microsoft is not going to stop making new standards.
That doesn't mean it was going to be what it is now; a huge reduction in overheads and better multithreading capability.
Normal DirectX updates would just be adding some new features, fixing bugs, cleaning up the code, with "major" versions deprecating older functions that are unused/replaced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

microsoft and AMD developed from the xbox one as well as earlier developments, But the ones making the calls are microsoft themselves.
The API currently used in the Xbox one does not resemble DirectX 12/Mantle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

AND and Nvidia will have to adjust themselves. AMD "showed" microsoft how it takes 2 times as long and 3 times as hard to make API to rival DX, and how to fail doing so.
They would have to be incompetent to not do it in less time when AMD shows them how to do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Also its development started when DX11.1 came, way before mantle was announced to be in development.
No, "DirectX 12" was in development. The specific implementation they have now wasn't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

AMD's mantle was considered when nvidia came with nvapi a while back. And it was pushed in order to give their GPUs an advantage and an attempted a control over the API for both nvidia and AMD, so nvidia will have harder time adding their own tech into it (without also giving it for free to AMD).
Gee, that must be why it's been transformed into Vulkan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Just to remind you that console API is low level just like mantle or nvapi. It is way older than mantle.
And yet it does not resemble Mantle/DirectX 12. Actually, they're planning on updating the API in the xbox one to make it more like DirectX 12.
Edited by Apokalipse - 5/19/15 at 5:04am
     
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post #337 of 480
well about witcher III,
Im running everything on ultra, except quality of distance (forgot the actual option name) on high, and hariworks off. Also motion blur off because i dont like. 30~45 fps average, with very few drops to 25, at 1080p. Running better than i expected. It seems that the distance thing is what kills the most fps. if i put it on ultra, i struggle to get 30fps average.
So not bad at all. gona change that tesselation thing on CCC to see if it gets any better.
If any driver come out as good as what they did to GTAV, it will be more than good.
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post #338 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Just to remind you that console API is low level just like mantle or nvapi. It is way older than mantle.

 

Actually, both the Xbox One and PS4 have a second API that is optional for developers who don't want to work with the low-level stuff. It abstracts almost everything for you, so it works a lot like DX11 in the sense that it removes the need for monitoring many things like texture management and the like. The lower-level API on both consoles basically gives you access to everything and anything, including the GPGPU stuff available through the HSA-like OpenCL-based extensions. 

post #339 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

No, "DirectX 12" was in development. The specific implementation they have now wasn't.

That is something of course, you have no idea about.
Microsoft always said the next iteration will be much faster and giver better performance. Even before we head the name "mantle". How it was not was not necessarily because of mantle.
And because it showed very little performance game in most games, it was extremely slow and nvidia said they will never support it, I have every confidence that microsoft did not care one bit about mantle.
Only if nvidia said they might support it, that would be the moment for microsoft to re-think things. Until that moment, the would have nothing to worry about.

I find if funny that people claim that AMD "showed" microsoft how it is done. We have seen how "well" it was implemented even before performance leaks came about DX12.
Just to remind you, that AMD claimed there will never be DX12.

Also people forget that nvapi was available years before mantle was even considered.
BF3 was a huge user of nvapi as an example to add extra visualisations using nvidia cards.
Nvapi is the base for gameworks and is being used under the hood for new GPU based visuals.

The only difference is that AMD were much more vocal about it as it "look at how cool we are" while nvidia just worked with it under the hood with developers. Talks vs actions.
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post #340 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apokalipse View Post

No, "DirectX 12" was in development. The specific implementation they have now wasn't.

That is something of course, you have no idea about.
Microsoft always said the next iteration will be much faster and giver better performance.
They always say everything will be faster and better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Even before we head the name "mantle". How it was not was not necessarily because of mantle.
So AMD gave them information on how Mantle works and Microsoft did nothing with it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

And because it showed very little performance game in most games, it was extremely slow and nvidia said they will never support it, I have every confidence that microsoft did not care one bit about mantle.
That's just an outright lie. Nvidia didn't support it because it was AMD's API. That's it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Only if nvidia said they might support it, that would be the moment for microsoft to re-think things. Until that moment, the would have nothing to worry about.
Microsoft did care about Mantle, but they obviously did not want DirectX to be replaced. Microsoft goes to great lengths to try and make DirectX the standard.
In fact, the original xbox pretty much was just a way of increasing DirectX adoption (hence the name Xbox)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

I find if funny that people claim that AMD "showed" microsoft how it is done. We have seen how "well" it was implemented even before performance leaks came about DX12.
Yeah, pretty close to the level of DirectX 12 itself; Indicating that they appear to work in a similar way. I mean, it's as if Microsoft took what they learned from the Mantle API.
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/177407-microsoft-hints-that-directx-12-will-imitate-and-destroy-amds-mantle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Just to remind you, that AMD claimed there will never be DX12.
So what are you trying to say here? Are you saying Microsoft did not actually plan to make DirectX 12 originally?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Also people forget that nvapi was available years before mantle was even considered.
nvapi is not a standalone graphics API.
Edited by Apokalipse - 5/19/15 at 6:33am
     
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