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[PCP] NVIDIA Under Attack Again for GameWorks in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Page 39

post #381 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

The other thing about it that's quite foggy is the pricing plan. For developers to not choose to licence the source code it must be pretty expensive.
Prohibitively expensive I bet.
Gameworks is cancer.
post #382 of 480
What truly amazes me is AMD themselves and their fanboys, they are all the time kicking and screaming of how physx/gameworks/gsync is crap and gimmicks, yet if it doesn't run amazing on your amd systems you all go ape about a thing you all stated you hate and are gimmicks, what is wrong with people. It is a propitiatory tech that costs money to develop and support, why would anyone give it out for free to someone else, also they are in no way obligated to do anything to make gameworks run on amd hardware and yet it runs on it and isn't locked out like physx. Plus it's not like you dear amd chips are locked out of using it and neither does it impose any performance limits on amd hardware if it is not used, so why won't you all just shut up about gameworks/physx/gsync...
Rant over had to get this out
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post #383 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

The individual pieces are still proprietary, you can't use Windows based software on any other OS legally, and you have to use Microsoft driver model WDDM to use devices on Microsoft OS, which changes per version of OS.

Just because you can't see the proprietary relationships, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Then there is the question of Metro Apps, where they are proprietary and tied to an account, Windows OS, and rarely are side loadable.

Are you legally allowed to use DirectX off on Windows? Or are developers legally allowed to use DirectX binaries for Linux?

GameWorks isn't prevented from running on AMD hardware. nVidia are not blocking access to AMD, they are blocking access to anyone unlicensed. AMD refused to get a license and work with GameWorks, nVidia refused to work with Mantle. Side note: Intel tried to work with Mantle and AMD denied them.

So again, what successful business doesn't use proprietary software or systems?

Stop focusing on the software. Focus on the hardware. Gameworks is just getting started and Nvidia isn't stupid, they're waiting to saturate the market with the hardware integration before they start locking down the software side.

It's only been done this way for 3 decades. This is nothing new.
Quote:

I stand corrected. Now he needs to fix the sources on his article.
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post #384 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Hairworks has been in GameWorks since the unification of GameWorks binaries around November and December 2013. It was completely black box at the time, according to nVidia that was because it was "beta" which nobody really believes. Instead we believe the out lash of developer feedback saying that was uncool and promptly provided a licensed source version in March/April 2014.

The other thing about it that's quite foggy is the pricing plan. For developers to not choose to licence the source code it must be pretty expensive. I'd imagine there is a great deal you can do with the toolset without the source code. CDRed don't have access to it (from what I read earlier in the week), yet have already improved the performance and look for HairWorks in Witcher 3 as of yesterday.

Now this is something I agree with, however, I want to be clear, this is 100% in line with how Citrix, Microsoft, Adobe... they all operate on arbitrary licensing models that are behind close doors.

It would hugely benefit nVidia to be transparent with costs, and in fact, always include the source code. It shouldn't be a separate fee. We all know publishers control the reigns on spending, and publishers only care about making money and one method is by cutting development costs through cutting time or money.

It's the developers which provide the heart and soul of the game anyway, they are the ones who end up looking bad because of this. In the end it hurts nVidia's rep as well as GameWorks by making it look more ominous than it is.

CDProjekt did not have access because they didn't pay for it. No other reason. I personally think, my opinion, nVidia should give it to their GamesWorks customers at no additional charge. This will increase their public image, the public image of GameWorks, but more importantly, allow devs the access they need, even if they can't afford to get through the paywall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

The individual pieces are still proprietary, you can't use Windows based software on any other OS legally, and you have to use Microsoft driver model WDDM to use devices on Microsoft OS, which changes per version of OS.

Just because you can't see the proprietary relationships, doesn't mean they aren't there.

Then there is the question of Metro Apps, where they are proprietary and tied to an account, Windows OS, and rarely are side loadable.

Are you legally allowed to use DirectX off on Windows? Or are developers legally allowed to use DirectX binaries for Linux?

GameWorks isn't prevented from running on AMD hardware. nVidia are not blocking access to AMD, they are blocking access to anyone unlicensed. AMD refused to get a license and work with GameWorks, nVidia refused to work with Mantle. Side note: Intel tried to work with Mantle and AMD denied them.

So again, what successful business doesn't use proprietary software or systems?

Stop focusing on the software. Focus on the hardware. Gameworks is just getting started and Nvidia isn't stupid, they're waiting to saturate the market with the hardware integration before they start locking down the software side.

How many high profile hardware companies provide drivers for open sourced Operating Systems, maybe a six or seven? You are avoiding the question because you have been backed into a corner.

You tell me stop focusing on software and you go right back to talking about software. Software called GameWorks. That's all it is. Software optimized (arguably haha) for their hardware. So again, which successful business is not using proprietary software or systems?
Quote:
It's only been done this way for 3 decades. This is nothing new.
There has been no other viable software model or business model, that has worked. That's why it's been this way.
Edited by RagingCain - 5/22/15 at 7:07am
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post #385 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Now this is something I agree with, however, I want to be clear, this is 100% in line with how Citrix, Microsoft, Adobe... they all operate on arbitrary licensing models that are behind close doors.

It would hugely benefit nVidia to be transparent with costs, and in fact, always include the source code. It shouldn't be a separate fee. We all know publishers control the reigns on spending, and publishers only care about making money and one method is by cutting development costs through cutting time or money.

It's the developers which provide the heart and soul of the game anyway, they are the ones who end up looking bad because of this. In the end it hurts nVidia's rep as well as GameWorks by making it look more ominous than it is.

CDProjekt did not have access because they didn't pay for it. No other reason. I personally think, my opinion, nVidia should give it to their GamesWorks customers at no additional charge. This will increase their public image, the public image of GameWorks, but more importantly, allow devs the access they need, even if they can't afford to get through the paywall.


Yeah agreed, it is slightly entitled of NVIDIA to do this but it does also depend on how much they're asking. For example CDRed would have had quite a large endorsement fee I'd imagine? Again, like you say this is all down to them really. Takes two to tango.

Another thing is with AMD, NVIDIA's recent response to GamerNexus says that they are not willing to give AMD access to source code. I would take that as a firm 'no', but would it still not benefit them to licence the tools so they can work with them within the game code? There are a lot of grey areas. The way I am seeing it is that they are probably in some way refusing to pay anything, period.
post #386 of 480
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Now this is something I agree with, however, I want to be clear, this is 100% in line with how Citrix, Microsoft, Adobe... they all operate on arbitrary licensing models that are behind close doors.

It would hugely benefit nVidia to be transparent with costs, and in fact, always include the source code. It shouldn't be a separate fee. We all know publishers control the reigns on spending, and publishers only care about making money and one method is by cutting development costs through cutting time or money.

It's the developers which provide the heart and soul of the game anyway, they are the ones who end up looking bad because of this. In the end it hurts nVidia's rep as well as GameWorks by making it look more ominous than it is.

CDProjekt did not have access because they didn't pay for it. No other reason. I personally think, my opinion, nVidia should give it to their GamesWorks customers at no additional charge. This will increase their public image, the public image of GameWorks, but more importantly, allow devs the access they need, even if they can't afford to get through the paywall.
How many high profile hardware companies provide drivers for open sourced Operating Systems, maybe a six or seven? You are avoiding the question because you have been backed into a corner.

You tell me stop focusing on software and you go right back to talking about software. Software called GameWorks. That's all it is. Software optimized (arguably haha) for their hardware. So again, which successful business is not using proprietary software or systems?
There has been no other viable software model or business model, that has worked. That's why it's been this way.

I'm not avoiding the question at all. You keep jumping into this conversation defending gameworks to the hilt when I'm discussing things that are not gameworks. I'm trying to keep you from changing the subject.

This is not about open source vs. proprietary software. Just stop. I don't know where the hell you get that from. Open source software is so far off my radar I couldn't find it with the Hubble telescope and a team of astronomers.
Edited by Ganf - 5/22/15 at 7:16am
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post #387 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Now this is something I agree with, however, I want to be clear, this is 100% in line with how Citrix, Microsoft, Adobe... they all operate on arbitrary licensing models that are behind close doors.

It would hugely benefit nVidia to be transparent with costs, and in fact, always include the source code. It shouldn't be a separate fee. We all know publishers control the reigns on spending, and publishers only care about making money and one method is by cutting development costs through cutting time or money.

It's the developers which provide the heart and soul of the game anyway, they are the ones who end up looking bad because of this. In the end it hurts nVidia's rep as well as GameWorks by making it look more ominous than it is.

CDProjekt did not have access because they didn't pay for it. No other reason. I personally think, my opinion, nVidia should give it to their GamesWorks customers at no additional charge. This will increase their public image, the public image of GameWorks, but more importantly, allow devs the access they need, even if they can't afford to get through the paywall.


Yeah agreed, it is slightly entitled of NVIDIA to do this but it does also depend on how much they're asking. For example CDRed would have had quite a large endorsement fee I'd imagine? Again, like you say this is all down to them really. Takes two to tango.

Another thing is with AMD, NVIDIA's recent response to GamerNexus says that they are not willing to give AMD access to source code. I would take that as a firm 'no', but would it still not benefit them to licence the tools so they can work with them within the game code? There are a lot of grey areas. The way I am seeing it is that they are probably in some way refusing to pay anything, period.

Most people are spitting venomous acid at the entire GameWorks project, at the same time providing no real solutions for what GameWorks is attempting to alleviate and demanding its removal.

nVidia has a right to do what they are doing, it's their IP. Gamers doing the most complaining are just being entitled babies, however, even a broken a clock is right two times a day.

They are right that nVidia is being anti-competitive, but not by creating GameWorks.

It is by leveraging their 75~85% claim to market share and creating a paywall for developers to optimize for the remaining 15~25%. They are incentivizing publishers NOT to buy the source code, when it comes pre-optimized (again arguably optimized) for that 75~85% of your user base already!?

From a business sense, it is a slam dunk, but it leaves little room for developers, whose publishers made a business decision to not pay for GameWorks source.

That's truly the problem. GameWorks libraries are an awesome step forward in adding great effects with ease, nVidia's licensing model has created an anti-competitive nature by utilizing their market share and ruthlessness of publishers' desires to cut costs and effective spending.

What's the real solution? Providing source code to any publisher/developer who has a license for standard GameWorks, at no additional cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Now this is something I agree with, however, I want to be clear, this is 100% in line with how Citrix, Microsoft, Adobe... they all operate on arbitrary licensing models that are behind close doors.

It would hugely benefit nVidia to be transparent with costs, and in fact, always include the source code. It shouldn't be a separate fee. We all know publishers control the reigns on spending, and publishers only care about making money and one method is by cutting development costs through cutting time or money.

It's the developers which provide the heart and soul of the game anyway, they are the ones who end up looking bad because of this. In the end it hurts nVidia's rep as well as GameWorks by making it look more ominous than it is.

CDProjekt did not have access because they didn't pay for it. No other reason. I personally think, my opinion, nVidia should give it to their GamesWorks customers at no additional charge. This will increase their public image, the public image of GameWorks, but more importantly, allow devs the access they need, even if they can't afford to get through the paywall.
How many high profile hardware companies provide drivers for open sourced Operating Systems, maybe a six or seven? You are avoiding the question because you have been backed into a corner.

You tell me stop focusing on software and you go right back to talking about software. Software called GameWorks. That's all it is. Software optimized (arguably haha) for their hardware. So again, which successful business is not using proprietary software or systems?
There has been no other viable software model or business model, that has worked. That's why it's been this way.

I'm not avoiding the question at all. You keep jumping into this conversation defending gameworks to the hilt when I'm discussing things that are not gameworks. I'm trying to keep you from changing the subject.

This is not about open source vs. proprietary software. Just stop. I don't know where the hell you get that from. Open source software is so far off my radar I couldn't find it with the Hubble telescope and a team of astronomers.

Well I jump in anywhere, I hear misinformation.

So again, you keep telling us GameWorks is a proprietary "system", it isn't. It is proprietary software, optimized for a hardware platform, but capable of running on the competitors hardware.

You keep saying all of this proprietary system stuff needs to go, starting with nVidia of course, while claiming you are being unbiased, and you truly are not.

You then make unsubstantiated claims about some proprietary system "stuff" without any backing, knowledgeable sources, and I simply asked, as I do again: which successful business does not use proprietary software or systems?

The point of the question is the answer is: zero. It's impossible because such a business could not exist today without using proprietary systems whether its an accounting software, Exchange environment, even RHEL is proprietary.

You are demanding nVidia not to use a proprietary model of business is asking them to stop being a modern day business. You just don't realize what you are saying which is why I was trying to get you to see that.
Edited by RagingCain - 5/22/15 at 7:28am
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post #388 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Most people are spitting venomous acid at the entire GameWorks project, at the same time providing no real solutions for what GameWorks is attempting to alleviate and demanding its removal.

nVidia has a right to do what they are doing, it's their IP. Gamers doing the most complaining are just being entitled babies, however, even a broken a clock is right two times a day.

They are right that nVidia is being anti-competitive, but not by creating GameWorks.

It is by leveraging their 75~85% claim to market share and creating a paywall for developers to optimize for the remaining 15~25%. They are incentivizing publishers NOT to buy the source code, when it comes pre-optimized (again arguably optimized) for that 75~85% of your user base already!?

From a business sense, it is a slam dunk, but it leaves little room for developers, whose publishers made a business decision to not pay for GameWorks source.

That's truly the problem. GameWorks libraries are an awesome step forward in adding great effects with ease, nVidia's licensing model has created an anti-competitive nature by utilizing their market share and ruthlessness of publishers' desires to cut costs and effective spending.

What's the real solution? Providing source code to any publisher/developer who has a license for standard GameWorks, at no additional cost.


That's certainly going to help. I think there is obviously a divide internally as well as you've got the people compiling these libraries who are probably genuinely quite passionate about them, and then they're snatched and labelled up by the corporate machine. But there is so much more good that comes out of GameWorks that people just don't think about. "GameWorks is cancer, GW just cripples my hardware".

How is that so when you're talking about extra face time with developers and pre optimised effects with the tools to implement them? The only real cancer is that AMD expect a free pass to this investment. That's not hating on AMD, that's real entitlement. It just needs to stop. Frankly, I think AMD just don't have the budget to staff a project like that if they are going to support it on a game by game basis. This isn't NVIDIA's problem, nor should it be.
post #389 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Most people are spitting venomous acid at the entire GameWorks project, at the same time providing no real solutions for what GameWorks is attempting to alleviate and demanding its removal.

nVidia has a right to do what they are doing, it's their IP. Gamers doing the most complaining are just being entitled babies, however, even a broken a clock is right two times a day.

They are right that nVidia is being anti-competitive, but not by creating GameWorks.

It is by leveraging their 75~85% claim to market share and creating a paywall for developers to optimize for the remaining 15~25%. They are incentivizing publishers NOT to buy the source code, when it comes pre-optimized (again arguably optimized) for that 75~85% of your user base already!?

From a business sense, it is a slam dunk, but it leaves little room for developers, whose publishers made a business decision to not pay for GameWorks source.

That's truly the problem. GameWorks libraries are an awesome step forward in adding great effects with ease, nVidia's licensing model has created an anti-competitive nature by utilizing their market share and ruthlessness of publishers' desires to cut costs and effective spending.

What's the real solution? Providing source code to any publisher/developer who has a license for standard GameWorks, at no additional cost.


That's certainly going to help. I think there is obviously a divide internally as well as you've got the people compiling these libraries who are probably genuinely quite passionate about them, and then they're snatched and labelled up by the corporate machine. But there is so much more good that comes out of GameWorks that people just don't think about. "GameWorks is cancer, GW just cripples my hardware".

How is that so when you're talking about extra face time with developers and pre optimised effects with the tools to implement them? The only real cancer is that AMD expect a free pass to this investment. That's not hating on AMD, that's real entitlement. It just needs to stop. Frankly, I think AMD just don't have the budget to staff a project like that if they are going to support it on a game by game basis. This isn't NVIDIA's problem, nor should it be.

I would love to jump on AMDs side, they are currently the underdog. I am super excited to see Zen CPU architecture and HBM. Unfortunately AMD have two talking heads which lie. They lie very loudly too. Even if they were marginally right, they lost the entire moral ground by over-embellishing the facts and lying about what's going on. Roy Taylor calls GameWorks "Evil". Really? Evil? You know what's Evil? What the Nazis did at concentration camps.

Richard Huddy and Roy Taylor, these two men make more people hate AMD then anything AMD has done in the past. AMD fans don't even realize this half the time. When you are losing in a GPU race, albeit possibly temporarily, you suck it up, and pat your competitor on the back saying good race. That's called sportsmanship. Not only are they not doing it, they out right lie to spin the public's opinion, and no offense to the internet, but the internet loves to hate things. It's just one negative herd mind. This week it's anti-nVidia and anti-CDProjektRed, last week it's anti-SM Studios, the week before last Gabe Newell was the devil. I can find quotes of how the only last "true" PC developer is CDPR dated April 2015.

I think AMD should start making money, stay competitive, and keep the gloves up. I think Roy and Richard shouldn't be allowed to talk on behalf of the company the way they do, it's unprofessional but that's my opinion. The internet loves them for that negative spin. If they had evidence of their claims, then AMD would have sued nVidia for anti-trust.
Edited by RagingCain - 5/22/15 at 7:46am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

Most people are spitting venomous acid at the entire GameWorks project, at the same time providing no real solutions for what GameWorks is attempting to alleviate and demanding its removal.

nVidia has a right to do what they are doing, it's their IP. Gamers doing the most complaining are just being entitled babies, however, even a broken a clock is right two times a day.

They are right that nVidia is being anti-competitive, but not by creating GameWorks.

It is by leveraging their 75~85% claim to market share and creating a paywall for developers to optimize for the remaining 15~25%. They are incentivizing publishers NOT to buy the source code, when it comes pre-optimized (again arguably optimized) for that 75~85% of your user base already!?

From a business sense, it is a slam dunk, but it leaves little room for developers, whose publishers made a business decision to not pay for GameWorks source.

That's truly the problem. GameWorks libraries are an awesome step forward in adding great effects with ease, nVidia's licensing model has created an anti-competitive nature by utilizing their market share and ruthlessness of publishers' desires to cut costs and effective spending.

What's the real solution? Providing source code to any publisher/developer who has a license for standard GameWorks, at no additional cost.
Well I jump in anywhere, I hear misinformation.

So again, you keep telling us GameWorks is a proprietary "system", it isn't. It is proprietary software, optimized for a hardware platform, but capable of running on the competitors hardware.

You keep saying all of this proprietary system stuff needs to go, starting with nVidia of course, while claiming you are being unbiased, and you truly are not.

You then make unsubstantiated claims about some proprietary system "stuff" without any backing, knowledgeable sources, and I simply asked, as I do again: which successful business does not use proprietary software or systems?

The point of the question is the answer is: zero. It's impossible because such a business could not exist today without using proprietary systems whether its an accounting software, Exchange environment, even RHEL is proprietary.

You are demanding nVidia not to use a proprietary model of business is asking them to stop being a modern day business. You just don't realize what you are saying which is why I was trying to get you to see that.

And you think that Nvidia honest has no intention of gradually nudging AMD's performance down after watching them attempt it already, nor will they hedge their bets by gimping AAA titles if AMD's 3xx cards turn out to be competitive against their current lineup?

The same company that's gimping their 900m series cards as we speak for a second time?

Come on.... As I said, I'm not just ragging Nvidia for this. AMD is pulling this crap too and I can't stand it. When they release LiquidVR and all games for the Oculus have to run that API or have crap for optimization, and Nvidia's SLI doesn't scale appropriately for it, I don't want to hear a single complaint out of you. You better be in here swearing that nothing underhanded is happening and that AMD is just doing what any company should do with their proprietary software.
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