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[PCP] NVIDIA Under Attack Again for GameWorks in The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt - Page 8

post #71 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alatar View Post

But you can disable rain drops and drop particle levels if your PC can't handle the rain effects... Maxed out rain effects on the PC are much, much better looking than the console versions and not all PCs can run them maxed.

Mine barely does at max graphics with 32 cars:



And honestly I don't run the game fully maxed out most of the time.

Rain is also when AMD cards do pretty well in pCARS because rainy weather is the most GPU bound.
I mean, I hope it is because this "my milkshake better than yours" competition has entered race to the bottom insanity. What do I care if a game looks better in still pictures if I cannot steer a racing wheel due to stutters.
I watch VVV play on at an absolute marvellous quality and connecting a console to a tablet looks greener and greener in its prospect. There is even less noise involved. Just dump the thing next to the router and migrate to a quiet next room. Somebody needs to get the tailoring right, there is a parody going on that has stopped being the humour of the day. mad.gif
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post #72 of 480
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Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

They'll have a hard time pushing gameworks on MMO's, a huge chunk of that market is low end hardware. They've got to optimize for everybody and do it well. I remember people saying that one of the biggest reasons they never moved permanently from WoW to Wildstar was because during the big raids it didn't matter if you had SLI, CF, single card behemoths, 5ghz single thread or Xeons, it ran like crap.

They laid in bed with square for it in FFXIV. however so far Nexon, Trion Worlds, Riot, and Aeria have all denied nvidia for that very reason. Cannot speak for the rest of them however.... Since consoles are GCN and ports run better at first/for good usually because of this nvidia has to do something and this is what they are trying to do... re-secure the games they can.
Edited by Feyris - 5/17/15 at 1:44pm
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post #73 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

That's how capitalism works. The truth will get revealed and guilty parties will be held accountable for their actions.

After all, this didn't stop AMD taking on the giant Intel, and actually winning their anti-trust case.
It isn't just nVidia making such claims, in the vicious response from AMD fans and AMD pro-tech bloggers/press, it's also the developers, such as Slighty Mad Studios calling out AMD for not being "available" and not offering assistance when asked. Ian, the lead developer, called them out point blank. Developers have been calling out AMD.

Sure both companies trade jabs once in a while, but AMD gets a religious free-pass every single time and nobody bats an eye.

nVidia has developers on their side in regards to AMDs level of support. AMDs claims rarely ever get supported by actual developers. What do you people then claim? nVidia paid off developers.

That's not what I was getting at with the legal action, what I was getting at is that it'll just fragment the market further because you'll have a huge chunk of developers who don't want to work with either AMD or Nvidia directly after watching people get dragged into the middle of that or getting dragged in themselves.

So what you are getting at is you want one API, one hardware architecture, one middleware, one eco-system?

That sounds like what you would like is a monopoly, unless I am misunderstanding.
Quote:
Nvidia has neglected just as many games as AMD in the past and been called on it also. If you think someone is getting a religious free pass, try to count how many times it's happened to Nvidia in the last 5 years without some intense googling.

I don't remember making the claim that nVidia was perfect. I remember making the claim on titles where AMD is blaming GameWorks as the reason for performance issues the Developers spoke out and said AMD dropped the ball. When was the last time you heard AMD taking responsibility for their performance in games publicly. Lately, last year or so, it's been all about either Mantle driving their focus, which means DX11 was neglected, or that GameWorks/nVidia are responsbile for their performance issues.
Quote:
It's become a pattern. Once AMD or Nvidia figures out that a particular game is drinking the Kool-Aid of the other manufacturer they have no interest in it because they could work day and night with the developer making sure that everything is picture perfect on that new game, but they'll never remove the competitor's splash screen from the startup sequence nor will they get their own worked in there. If a developer wants to complain that one hardware manufacturer isn't working with them then they need to point a finger at themselves at the same time by not offering an equal platform for either AMD or Nvidia to promote all of the hard work they put into it.

I am all for AMD pushing their own API / TressFX or similar software ecosystem. I don't care if the splash screen is green or red. Just as long as the game works. Sadly that isn't the case when it's RED or GREEN for team RED.
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post #74 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by pengs View Post

Some type of physics, gravity for instance, ragdoll, simple particles, ect. have been used for over 25 years at this point, further if you care to go, and were not developed by a GPU vendor. What's the historical evidence? DX12 allows almost direct access to the hardware, there is no longer a stop sign. I think it's reasonable, easily, to say that games will incorporate their own encapsulated and job specific physics engines of sorts but with time obviously.

Yes. Developers took time to implement those features because their games would look much better with them. Why didn't they take the time to have volumetric smoke, advanced particles and deformable landscape based on basic physics equations? My answer would be time and money to develop usable algorithms to approximate those effects.

I subscribe to the theory that time and money is why developers use middleware. I think it's backed up by the numerous games coming out in half baked states. I'm not sure where you are getting that DX12 will make it easier on developers. My understanding is that if developers choose to use the lower level elements of DX12 it would increase their workload in managing resources.
post #75 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assirra View Post

Well if that is true, wouldn't it be to EA's advantage to actually work for all cards? They got no business in the card market to begin with.

Only if other companies are willing to play. In any case, it's not an "if". Johan Andersson, technical director of EA DICE's Frostbite engine, is the creator and designer of the API.

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/APU13-Der-Battlefield-Schoepfer-ueber-AMDs-3D-Schnittstelle-Mantle-2045398.html
Quote:
c't: The Community and even journalists were surprised by the announcement of the 3D interface Mantle in late September-2013. When work began on Mantle?

Andersson: About five years ago we started to think about it.
We had at that time already gained experience with consoles and also wanted for the PC, a similar type of access and programmability. We talked with several companies, including Intel and Nvidia.

c't: So you have virtually laid the foundation for Mantle?

Andersson: Of course not me alone, but I was probably the one who has placed the most stuff.
Because we develop high-end games for the PC, we have a certain influence in the industry. Mantle meant for us at DICE to create a completely different rendering backend. For AMD it was build a driver team that puts its resources and time in the development of an alternative 3D interface. These are all big steps and I have to pay respect to AMD that they have implemented my suggestions. Because none of the other manufacturers did.

AMD just helped give his design an implementation on their hardware.

And speaking of, AMD said they shared development info with MS and then they gave it to Khronos, which used Mantle as a basis for Vulkan. So Johan's wishes have effectively come to fruition.
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post #76 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by pengs View Post

Some type of physics, gravity for instance, ragdoll, simple particles, ect. have been used for over 25 years at this point, further if you care to go, and were not developed by a GPU vendor. What's the historical evidence? DX12 allows almost direct access to the hardware, there is no longer a stop sign. I think it's reasonable, easily, to say that games will incorporate their own encapsulated and job specific physics engines of sorts but with time obviously.

Low level access to the hardware has never been the challenge to incorporate physics engines or effects. A couple of basic things exist sure, but anything cutting edge requires tons of algorithm implementation work and optimization to make it run in realtime on a modern PC.

Saying that "putting the laws of physics into a game to get realistic physics in a game shouldn't take much" is like saying "putting the laws of physics and light into a game to get photorealistic graphics shouldn't take much." And yet graphics is comprised wholly of hacks and shortcuts to get the biggest bang for buck, because simulating the world visually as light rays in realtime isn't remotely possible from a performance perspective.

It's naive to think that you just program in some constraints and you have a a physics engine or effect. You need to have a genuinely innovative algorithm that dictates how each thing is virtually represented and behaves in every possible situation. There is a tremendous amount of math, innovation, and iteration. Many times things aren't quite right and after many months or years of work, they get abandoned.

This is the cost and burden that can't reasonably be done by every individual game studio, so the NVIDIA Gameworks program does it for them and gives out the library and source to the developer like any other industry middleware. It is the same model.

Having Gameworks or not is quite literally the difference between having these effects in your game at all or not... Most developers don't have the time or resources to make this stuff when they're pushed by stockholders and beancounters to just get a game out and make some money. If these libraries didn't exist you'd be back to complaining about getting console ports.
Edited by Seven7h - 5/17/15 at 1:52pm
post #77 of 480
Quote:
All arguing aside, this game looks amazing. Can we all agree on that?

You'd like to think so, Ryan.

As for the controversy...unlucky.


Why don't you all stop bickering about it and set up a kickstarter for AMD so they can fund a program that gives developers new shaders and technologies.
Edited by Silent Scone - 5/17/15 at 1:56pm
post #78 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

So what you are getting at is you want one API, one hardware architecture, one middleware, one eco-system?

That sounds like what you would like is a monopoly, unless I am misunderstanding.
I don't remember making the claim that nVidia was perfect. I remember making the claim on titles where AMD is blaming GameWorks as the reason for performance issues the Developers spoke out and said AMD dropped the ball. When was the last time you heard AMD taking responsibility for their performance in games publicly. Lately, last year or so, it's been all about either Mantle driving their focus, which means DX11 was neglected, or that GameWorks/nVidia are responsbile for their performance issues.
I am all for AMD pushing their own API / TressFX or similar software ecosystem. I don't care if the splash screen is green or red. Just as long as the game works. Sadly that isn't the case when it's RED or GREEN for team RED.

Nope. They can make as many API's, architectures, middlewares and ecosystems as they want, until they're sick of counting them for all I care, as long as they all coexist. Enough of this garbage with saying "Well, this one works best with this and when you're using this it's even better and that one uses the other one only and if you've got this piece the other one over there sometimes fits and sometimes doesn't, figure it out as you go.

Stop. That. Crap.

AMD and Nvidia are both trying to wall us off into separate hardware-locked ecosystems and it's disgusting. Freesync, G-sync, Mantle, Hairworks, PhysX, on and on and on....

If I wanted to play video games in a walled garden I'd buy a damn Mac and be done with it.
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post #79 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seven7h View Post

Low level access to the hardware has never been the challenge to incorporate physics engines or effects. A couple of basic things exist sure, but anything cutting edge requires tons of algorithm implementation work and optimization to make it run in realtime on a modern PC.

Saying that "putting the laws of physics into a game to get realistic physics in a game shouldn't take much" is like saying "putting the laws of physics and light into a game to get photorealistic graphics shouldn't take much." And yet graphics is comprised wholly of hacks and shortcuts to get the biggest bang for buck, because simulating the world visually as light rays in realtime isn't remotely possible from a performance perspective.

It's naive to think that you just program in some constraints and you have a a physics engine or effect. You need to have a genuinely innovative algorithm that dictates how each thing is virtually represented and behaves in every possible situation. There is a tremendous amount of math, innovation, and iteration. Many times things aren't quite right and after many months or years of work, they get abandoned.

This is the cost and burden that can't reasonably be done by every individual game studio, so the NVIDIA Gameworks program does it for them and gives out the library and source to the developer like any other industry middleware. It is the same model.

Having Gameworks or not is quite literally the difference between having these effects in your game at all or not... Most developers don't have the time or resources to make this stuff when they're pushed by stockholders and beancounters to just get a game out and make some money. If these libraries didn't exist you'd be back to complaining about getting console ports.

Uhh right. Exactly like what I was trying to say in my barely comprehensible post except much more articulate and informative.

Now where the hell is the proper emoji... whistle.gif?
post #80 of 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anateus View Post

Read more before you blame AMD for bad PCard performance. Its only Nvidia and devs fault.

How is it NV's fault when the game doesn't run GPU PhysX at all?

Both AMD and NV have to run CPU PhysX in project cars.

Turning on GPU PhysX from the NV panel has literally no effect on NV performance in pCARS despite angry mobs on reddit claiming otherwise.
 
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