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[Ars] North Carolina sues FCC for right to block municipal broadband - Page 4

post #31 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarhead View Post

Except that those are funded by taxing people that don't want the service, also known a stealing. And because of those deep pockets the municipal service can operate at an extreme loss and control infrastructure to insure no private competition, which will hold back technological progress. Like happens with railroads the whole world over. Any way you slice it there is no good solution here.

No, taxes are not stealing, because the actions taken by duly elected representatives IS what people want.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to live your life immune from everything that you don't want. Not in a society. If you want to go live off the grid and never interact with anyone that's your business, but the simple fact that you're capable of posting on OCN means that you have to suck it up and accept that you live in a representative democracy.
post #32 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunzkevin1 View Post

What is Tennessee doing? I know I am limited to only comcast in my apartment, but I thought other parts of Chattanooga had it pretty good. We are after all, "gig-city". First in the US with gigabit I believe.

Marsha Blackburn (last I checked) was leading the same thing here. Trying to get the state to sue the FCC over the EPB expansion.
post #33 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post

No, taxes are not stealing, because the actions taken by duly elected representatives IS what people want.

I'm sorry, but you don't get to live your life immune from everything that you don't want. Not in a society. If you want to go live off the grid and never interact with anyone that's your business, but the simple fact that you're capable of posting on OCN means that you have to suck it up and accept that you live in a representative democracy.

That only applies if you live in a democracy which the U.S. isn't. The U.S. is an Oligarchy, I'm not sure I'd classify it as stealing but its certaintly not what "the people" want. More like what a special interest group with money and connections wants.
post #34 of 60
People who rag on NC about being backwards obviously have never been to the Research Triangle Park (RTP) are or the "Concentrated Area of Relocated Yankees" (aka Cary) where my daughter lives. biggrin.gif
post #35 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

That only applies if you live in a democracy which the U.S. isn't. The U.S. is an Oligarchy, I'm not sure I'd classify it as stealing but its certaintly not what "the people" want. More like what a special interest group with money and connections wants.

You are correct, but only half. Much of what taxes are spent on are definitely "what the people want," and much are not. It cuts both ways and then gets really murky when you get into media manipulation of public opinion. But people who rail against taxes on principal are idiots. The argument that our democracy has been co-opted by monied interests is a compelling one, and very disconcerting. But the issue isn't one of taxation, but representation. Framing it otherwise only serves to undermine public interests by deflecting the issue.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in this particular case special interests are fighting against the rights of the people to determine public policy for themselves. Ie: the issue is one of barring representation, not improper spending of government funds. I mean, the state is suing the federal authority for the right to prevent its own citizenry from choosing a particular policy option for itself? It really does seem cut and dried to me.
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post #36 of 60
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Originally Posted by hurleyef View Post

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in this particular case special interests are fighting against the rights of the people to determine public policy for themselves. Ie: the issue is one of barring representation, not improper spending of government funds. I mean, the state is suing the federal authority for the right to prevent its own citizenry from choosing a particular policy option for itself? It really does seem cut and dried to me.

Bingo.

Personally, I'd much rather have local control of tax dollars than just sending it off to Washington and hope it trickles down to your area again. thumb.gif
post #37 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleyef View Post

You are correct, but only half. Much of what taxes are spent on are definitely "what the people want," and much are not. It cuts both ways and then gets really murky when you get into media manipulation of public opinion. But people who rail against taxes on principal are idiots. The argument that our democracy has been co-opted by monied interests is a compelling one, and very disconcerting. But the issue isn't one of taxation, but representation. Framing it otherwise only serves to undermine public interests by deflecting the issue.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in this particular case special interests are fighting against the rights of the people to determine public policy for themselves. Ie: the issue is one of barring representation, not improper spending of government funds. I mean, the state is suing the federal authority for the right to prevent its own citizenry from choosing a particular policy option for itself? It really does seem cut and dried to me.

I completely agree with you, in essence this issue is one of a state trying to remain a democracy while the federal government tries to convert said state into an oligarcy.
post #38 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DIYDeath View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleyef View Post

You are correct, but only half. Much of what taxes are spent on are definitely "what the people want," and much are not. It cuts both ways and then gets really murky when you get into media manipulation of public opinion. But people who rail against taxes on principal are idiots. The argument that our democracy has been co-opted by monied interests is a compelling one, and very disconcerting. But the issue isn't one of taxation, but representation. Framing it otherwise only serves to undermine public interests by deflecting the issue.

I could be wrong, but it seems to me that in this particular case special interests are fighting against the rights of the people to determine public policy for themselves. Ie: the issue is one of barring representation, not improper spending of government funds. I mean, the state is suing the federal authority for the right to prevent its own citizenry from choosing a particular policy option for itself? It really does seem cut and dried to me.

I completely agree with you, in essence this issue is one of a state trying to remain a democracy while the federal government tries to convert said state into an oligarcy.

So, let me see if I understand you. You are saying that the democratically elected state governments forcing democratically elected local governments not to spend their local tax dollars to setup a municipal internet is democracy while the democratically elected federal government forcing the state government to let the local government do what it wants is an oligarchy abusing its power?

I think you missed the point.

State government is one of the best governments to buy, it is pretty cheap for the power they have. There are really a lot of local governments so it is a pain to figure out who to pay fund in all of them and buying influencing the federal government is much more expensive.

I am strongly in favor of keeping power and money as local as possible, let local government keep more of the tax money and the control over how to spend it. State governments are at least as in the pockets of big business and special interest groups as the federal government is.

This case just seems like a state government (apparently owned by big ISPs) being told the ISPs plans to protect their monopolies are infringing on local governments' rights. Why should the State be able to tell a City they cannot setup municipal internet? What does that have to do with them? If the people in the city didn't want it the people living in the city wouldn't have voted for it.
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post #39 of 60
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Originally Posted by hurleyef View Post

You are correct, but only half. Much of what taxes are spent on are definitely "what the people want," and much are not. It cuts both ways and then gets really murky when you get into media manipulation of public opinion. But people who rail against taxes on principal are idiots. The argument that our democracy has been co-opted by monied interests is a compelling one, and very disconcerting. But the issue isn't one of taxation, but representation. Framing it otherwise only serves to undermine public interests by deflecting the issue.


I'm going to refrain from returning your name calling. You're truly relieved, I'm sure.

Here's how taxation works - I'll use "property" tax as an example so as not to strain the grey squishy thing between your ears. On any land you own a government demands tribute. Refuse to pay up, and government will lien the land and eventually seize and auction it. Refuse to agree to having "your" land sold against your will, and thugs with ridiculous costumes, shiny chest-props, and very real guns will be dispatched to your door to kidnap you. Contest the kidnapping and they claim the right to kill you. Agree to the kidnapping, and they will place you into metal bondage gear and transport you to a gay dungeon. But first they will shoot your dog. Applied to any other group of people and what I've just described would be called a protection racket, extortion through threat of physical violence, or actual acts of physical violence. Call them "government" and as if by magic it's right and proper, and the linchpin of "civilized society."

The foundation of your "civilized society" is "DO WHAT WE SAY AND NO ONE GET'S HURT."

And I'm not even remotely ashamed or embarrassed to say that I oppose that with everything I have and all that I will ever be.
post #40 of 60
Okay guys. This is my 4th 12 hour shift this week and I'm tired and don't comprehend well. What exactly is going on? Do I need to pack up and leave now?
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