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Noctua F12 or S12A for case fans - Page 4

post #31 of 44
@lagittaja
I only quoted what I've read on the web. rolleyes.gif
You on the other hand have a sonic .. now that's impressive! .. assuming it's a working sonic. thumb.gif
post #32 of 44
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MicroCat View Post

P12s cost in the triple digits now? ;-)

Lol, but £35 is not to be sniffed at when it's just to moderately quieten my PC wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Fan rpm at PWM % is based on fan max speed and PWM%:RPM curve.
For example here is a graph of TY-14x series fans. Notice the TY-140, 147 & 147A are all 1300rpm, but TY-147A has a different curve than the other two because the PWM program is different allowing it to idle at 300rpm and ramp up faster above 900rpm. The TY-143 is 2500rpm with same PWM program as TY-140 & 147, but because of the difference in maximum speed spins faster on same PWM signal.



I would use F12 fans as intake and on cooler with A12S as exhaust. This will give a slight advantage to intake airflow to overcome filter and more restrictive vent grill than exhaust and leak filtered air out of case to balance the pressure rather than dusty air leaking in when exhaust is pulling more than intake is supplying.


There are many different pulse signal designs being used now to stop the pulse click and fan noise. Some even have a varied spacing rather than consistant spaced pulse beat to vary the power to fan.

The simplest way to generate a PWM signal is the intersective method, which requires only a sawtooth or a triangle waveform (easily generated using a simple oscillator) and a comparator. When the value of the reference signal (the red sine wave) is more than the modulation waveform (blue), the PWM signal (magenta) is in the high state, otherwise it is in the low state.

A simple method to generate the PWM pulse train corresponding to a given signal is the intersective PWM: the signal (here the red sinewave) is compared with a sawtooth waveform (blue). When the latter is less than the former, the PWM signal (magenta) is in high state (1). Otherwise it is in the low state (0).



Delta
In the use of delta modulation for PWM control, the output signal is integrated, and the result is compared with limits, which correspond to a Reference signal offset by a constant. Every time the integral of the output signal reaches one of the limits, the PWM signal changes state.

Principle of the delta PWM. The output signal (blue) is compared with the limits (green). These limits correspond to the reference signal (red), offset by a given value. Every time the output signal (blue) reaches one of the limits, the PWM signal changes state.



Delta-sigma
In delta-sigma modulation as a PWM control method, the output signal is subtracted from a reference signal to form an error signal. This error is integrated, and when the integral of the error exceeds the limits, the output changes state.

Principle of the sigma-delta PWM. The top green waveform is the reference signal, on which the output signal (PWM, in the bottom plot) is subtracted to form the error signal (blue, in top plot). This error is integrated (middle plot), and when the integral of the error exceeds the limits (red lines), the output changes state.



Three types of pulse-width modulation (PWM) are possible:
The pulse center may be fixed in the center of the time window and both edges of the pulse moved to compress or expand the width.
The lead edge can be held at the lead edge of the window and the tail edge modulated.
The tail edge can be fixed and the lead edge modulated.

Three types of PWM signals (blue): leading edge modulation (top), trailing edge modulation (middle) and centered pulses (both edges are modulated, bottom). The green lines are the sawtooth waveform (first and second cases) and a triangle waveform (third case) used to generate the PWM waveforms using the intersective method.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

I have cut-off points of how far I want to dive into something, this is way beyond that biggrin.gif

Gonna take out the HDD cage right now and stick the drives in the icy-dock thing I got in the 5.25" bay, then stick this PWM splitter on and see what happens, got the LNA leads at the ready to test the difference..
Edited by samwillc - 5/21/15 at 10:12am
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post #33 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwillc View Post

Lol, but £35 is not to be sniffed at when it's just to moderately quieten my PC wink.gif
I have cut-off points of how far I want to dive into something, this is way beyond that biggrin.gif

Gonna take out the HDD cage right now and stick the drives in the icy-dock thing I got in the 5.25" bay, then stick this PWM splitter on and see what happens, got the LNA leads at the ready to test the difference..
Are the LNA leads 4-pin? Because all I've ever used were for 3-pin fans.


Most of that was for others wanting to understand PWM. Only the first 2 paragraphs and first graph were in reply to your questions. biggrin.gif
post #34 of 44
Thread Starter 
On phone, PC's got the sides hanging off! Yeah they've got 4 holes at one end, and 4 pins at the other, about 4" long lead.
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post #35 of 44
Yeah, with PWM Noctua fans you get 4pin LNA's/ULNA's and 4pin extensions and a 4pin Y-adapter.
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post #36 of 44
Thread Starter 
Ok, so powered up, and then had to take the side back off and shine a torch in there to make sure the fans were even on, literally can't hear a thing!

A few points.

1) When I connected the molex on the pwm to the molex that goes to the psu, the pins pushed in a bit. So, I pulled them back out and connected it. However, now I don't know whether it's actually doing anything, or whether 3 fans are gonna pull too much power from the single CPU_OPT header.

2) In openhardware monitor, I only have 2 fans showing now:

Fan#1 (CPU) which is going approx. 750rpm
Fan#6 (!!) which is going at about 450rpm

My original results were:

Fan #1 950rpm (chassis)
Fan #2 750rpm (CPU fan)
Fan #3 950rpm (chassis)
Fan #4 950rpm (chassis)

So the fans are obviously (and audibly) going slower. Temps are 28c-32c idle.

I ran prime95 for about 20mins (I know only a short time) and CPU temps crept up to about 55c but the Fan#6 still only went up to about 850rpm. So it *seems* like it's all working. I presume this speed would increase if I left it for longer with more temp increase.

I'm actually pretty surprised how quiet it is, I've being sitting next to it for a year with the fans going twice that speed, and it seems they didn't need to at all to keep the temps down. Which leads me to my next question, how can the temps be the same as they were before with the fans going at half the speed? confused.gif
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500GB Samsung Evo 850 250GB Samsung Evo 850 1TB WD HDD Noctua NH-U9S 
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500GB Samsung Evo 850 250GB Samsung Evo 850 1TB WD HDD Noctua NH-U9S 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Noctua P14s redux 1200rpm Windows 10 27" Dell UltraSharp U2715H Antec Edge 650W 
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Thermaltake F1 Suppressor RME Babyface USB 
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post #37 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwillc View Post

Ok, so powered up, and then had to take the side back off and shine a torch in there to make sure the fans were even on, literally can't hear a thing!

A few points.

1) When I connected the molex on the pwm to the molex that goes to the psu, the pins pushed in a bit. So, I pulled them back out and connected it. However, now I don't know whether it's actually doing anything, or whether 3 fans are gonna pull too much power from the single CPU_OPT header.

2) In openhardware monitor, I only have 2 fans showing now:

Fan#1 (CPU) which is going approx. 750rpm
Fan#6 (!!) which is going at about 450rpm

My original results were:

Fan #1 950rpm (chassis)
Fan #2 750rpm (CPU fan)
Fan #3 950rpm (chassis)
Fan #4 950rpm (chassis)

So the fans are obviously (and audibly) going slower. Temps are 28c-32c idle.

I ran prime95 for about 20mins (I know only a short time) and CPU temps crept up to about 55c but the Fan#6 still only went up to about 850rpm. So it *seems* like it's all working. I presume this speed would increase if I left it for longer with more temp increase.

I'm actually pretty surprised how quiet it is, I've being sitting next to it for a year with the fans going twice that speed, and it seems they didn't need to at all to keep the temps down. Which leads me to my next question, how can the temps be the same as they were before with the fans going at half the speed? confused.gif

This sounds like a success. Do you really want to question success? biggrin.gif

1) - If the molex to splitter connector is making connection then fans will be powered from the power supply, not the fan header. However, the Nocs are very efficient and pull less than 0.05A, so could safely run 4 without issue.

2) As expected. Only 1 fan on the PWM splitter can report back to mission control - usually you want to connect the CPU cooler fan to the connector that reports rpm.

Why it's the same temp at lower rpms? Diminishing returns, better fans with PWM. You probably had more airflow than required - and the F12 on a cooler is much better than the stock CM fan - it can move more air at lower rpms. AND with full PWM the fans can spin at lower rpm than with voltage control.
post #38 of 44
The PWM splitter will only monitor 1 fan speed. To monitor rpm of other fans requires an RPM lead from each fan to different headers on the motherboard.
post #39 of 44
Thread Starter 
The cooler fan is still the 212 stock and is connected to CPU_FAN. I'm gonna switch an F12 onto it tomorrow and put an S12A as exhaust when it arrives.

The pwm splitter is on CPU_OPT and I've just used 3 of the 4 connectors. This probably explains why I have two fan readings in openhardware monitor.

I'm pleased with the results though smile.gif thanks for all the help.
My System
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4670K Asus H81i-plus itx Evga Nvidia GeForce GTX750 16GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
500GB Samsung Evo 850 250GB Samsung Evo 850 1TB WD HDD Noctua NH-U9S 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Noctua P14s redux 1200rpm Windows 10 27" Dell UltraSharp U2715H Antec Edge 650W 
CaseAudio
Thermaltake F1 Suppressor RME Babyface USB 
  hide details  
Reply
My System
(18 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4670K Asus H81i-plus itx Evga Nvidia GeForce GTX750 16GB Crucial Ballistix DDR3  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
500GB Samsung Evo 850 250GB Samsung Evo 850 1TB WD HDD Noctua NH-U9S 
CoolingOSMonitorPower
Noctua P14s redux 1200rpm Windows 10 27" Dell UltraSharp U2715H Antec Edge 650W 
CaseAudio
Thermaltake F1 Suppressor RME Babyface USB 
  hide details  
Reply
post #40 of 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by samwillc View Post

The cooler fan is still the 212 stock and is connected to CPU_FAN. I'm gonna switch an F12 onto it tomorrow and put an S12A as exhaust when it arrives.

The pwm splitter is on CPU_OPT and I've just used 3 of the 4 connectors. This probably explains why I have two fan readings in openhardware monitor.
I'm pleased with the results though smile.gif thanks for all the help.
The PWM fan splitter is only sending one fan speed signal to the motherboard. Each header can only monitor one fan speed.
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