Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [WFFC]Nvidia Responds To Witcher 3 GameWorks Controversy, PC Gamers On The Offensive
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[WFFC]Nvidia Responds To Witcher 3 GameWorks Controversy, PC Gamers On The Offensive

post #1 of 94
Thread Starter 
Quote:
This sparked a wave of controversy which started when extremetech.com shed light on some genuinely unsettling details with regards to the GameWorks program and how it can and has actually been used to undermine competition and obfuscate control from game developers. A number of prominent game developers went on to publicly criticize Nvidia’s GameWorks program describing it as a “BlackBox” with some developers going as far as to call it “unusable”.

The list of developers includes Kostas Anagnostou the Senior graphics programmer at Radiant Worlds, John W Kloetzli, Jr a graphics programmer on the Civilization team at Firaxis Games, Angelo Pesce a Rendering Technical Director & Johan Andersson the Technical Director on Frostbite at Electronic Arts.
Quote:
As a result of the backlash, Nvidia changed its policy to allow game developers access to the source code as of mid April of last year. However according to AMD, this did not alter the situation, as game developers engaged in the Nvidia GameWorks program were still not allowed to work with AMD to optimize the code for their hardware. Something which Nvidia initially denied but later Nvidia’s Tom Petersen and Rev Lebaradian admitted. Witcher 3 developers, CD Projekt Red, reaffirmed this again two days ago.

This is in contrast to AMD’s Gaming Evolved Program which the company claims puts no restrictions on developers to optimize game code for any of their competitors. In fact AMD actively worked to optimize its TressFX technology for Nvidia hardware to the point where it performed equally well on both. TressFX is a physics hair simulation technology from AMD that’s comparable to Nvidia’s HairWorks, which produce hair and fur effects . However unlike HairWorks it performs equally well on both AMD and Nvidia hardware partly because the source code is publicly available and has been optimized for Nvidia as mentioned above and partly because code base is quite efficient to begin with.
In contrast to GameWorks code which Nvidia only provides to its co-marketing game developer partners, AMD makes the source code to all visual effects in its library available publicly and to everyone for free, including Nvidia.

source/

Dont know if anyone posted this yet.

The part that got me was "game developers engaged in the Nvidia GameWorks program were still not allowed to work with AMD to optimize the code for their hardware. Something which Nvidia initially denied but later Nvidia’s Tom Petersen and Rev Lebaradian admitted. Witcher 3 developers, CD Projekt Red, reaffirmed this again two days ago." Just because the NV extreme fan boys were like "NVIDIA wouldnt do that" lol
One
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790K Gigabyte Z97X GAMING G1 GIGABYTE WINDFORCE 980 16GB 
Hard Drive
Samsung 840 EVO 
  hide details  
Reply
One
(5 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
4790K Gigabyte Z97X GAMING G1 GIGABYTE WINDFORCE 980 16GB 
Hard Drive
Samsung 840 EVO 
  hide details  
Reply
post #2 of 94
Sadly this has been known for some time, I think they also do it with G-sync too. American companies with their shady tactics, can't they just try and win on a level playing-field? I mean, it's not like they don't have a good product to start with, they don't need to do this crap.

No matter, we'll still get the ravonous fanboys roaming around and still frothing at the mouth to get the next Titan XXLZ-Titanium-platnum which performs worse than a GTX 2million with a 3,000 dollar price tag extra. tongue.gif



So, whats the similarities between: Apple, Harley Davidson and Nvidia?

They all produce overpriced stuff, have Fanboi Zealots and people believe they're better than everything else on the market.
Edited by Superplush - 5/19/15 at 4:52am
post #3 of 94
Quite a feat for AMD to be neck and neck with the 970 with the 290x given the situation.

Classic titan is ~2 fps faster than a 960...
See Pee Yoo
(17 items)
 
Lian Mi
(12 items)
 
Craptop
(5 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500k asrock extreme4 980ti corsair vengeance  
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial m3 seagate green lg dvdrw Noctua D14 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
win 7 64bit 2 x 1920 x 1080p (ASUS and LG) xl2420te ocz zx 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
haf bx g600 / / Roccat Savu Puretrak Talent Soundblaster Z 
Audio
sennheiser hd558 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
celereon g1610 g1 sniper m3 parema seagate barracuda 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
dvdrw windows vista vizio 3d tv rosewill green 530 
CaseMouse
lian li pc v354b logitech g300 
CPUGraphicsHard DriveOS
4810MQ GTX 870M samsung evo  Windows 8.1 
Other
Sager 8728 
  hide details  
Reply
See Pee Yoo
(17 items)
 
Lian Mi
(12 items)
 
Craptop
(5 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500k asrock extreme4 980ti corsair vengeance  
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial m3 seagate green lg dvdrw Noctua D14 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
win 7 64bit 2 x 1920 x 1080p (ASUS and LG) xl2420te ocz zx 1000w 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
haf bx g600 / / Roccat Savu Puretrak Talent Soundblaster Z 
Audio
sennheiser hd558 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
celereon g1610 g1 sniper m3 parema seagate barracuda 
Optical DriveOSMonitorPower
dvdrw windows vista vizio 3d tv rosewill green 530 
CaseMouse
lian li pc v354b logitech g300 
CPUGraphicsHard DriveOS
4810MQ GTX 870M samsung evo  Windows 8.1 
Other
Sager 8728 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by Said Nobody View Post

The part that got me was "game developers engaged in the Nvidia GameWorks program were still not allowed to work with AMD to optimize the code for their hardware. Something which Nvidia initially denied but later Nvidia’s Tom Petersen and Rev Lebaradian admitted. Witcher 3 developers, CD Projekt Red, reaffirmed this again two days ago." Just because the NV extreme fan boys were like "NVIDIA wouldnt do that" lol

Could you post some direct quotes from those people saying Nvidia does not allow developers to optimize for AMD hardware?
I have not yet seen that anywhere. The only thing I saw was Nvidia or someone said that Nvidia does not allow game developers with a Gameworks license to distribute source code to anyone who does not have a license. Which is completely understandable and a completely normal situation. It is something different entirely to say Nvidia specifically does not allow the dev's who are using gameworks in a game to not be allowed optimize for AMD, and I just havent seen the quotes of anyone saying that yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Superplush View Post

Sadly this has been known for some time, I think they also do it with G-sync too. American companies with their shady tactics, can't they just try and win on a level playing-field? I mean, it's not like they don't have a good product to start with, they don't need to do this crap.

No matter, we'll still get the ravonous fanboys roaming around and still frothing at the mouth to get the next Titan XXLZ-Titanium-platnum which performs worse than a GTX 2million with a 3,000 dollar price tag extra. tongue.gif

So, whats the similarities between: Apple, Harley Davidson and Nvidia?

They all produce overpriced stuff, have Fanboi Zealots and people believe they're better than everything else on the market.

hahaha. That is either insanely hypocritical or incredibly ignorant. Either way your post is completely disgusting.
Edited by EniGma1987 - 5/19/15 at 5:35am
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
Reply
post #5 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Could you post some direct quotes from those people saying Nvidia does not allow developers to optimize for AMD hardware?

I assume he is referring to this:
Quote:
"Many of you have asked us if AMD Radeon GPUs would be able to run NVIDIA’s HairWorks technology – the answer is yes! However, unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products. Radeon users are encouraged to disable NVIDIA HairWorks if the performance is below expectations."

Source

HairWorks for Witcher 3 and the whole PhysX fiasco with Project Cars (not only on AMD cards but older Nvidia cards as well) causes a slippery slope. I understand Nvidia is the market share leader and developers would want to work closely with them, but there should be some line you should cross-- such as specifically devoiting time to something like, oh say HairWorks, that you can now not share with AMD or work with them for optimization on because of NDAs.
post #6 of 94
Quote:
number of prominent game developers went on to publicly criticize Nvidia’s GameWorks program describing it as a “BlackBox” with some developers going as far as to call it “unusable”.
Quote:
this did not alter the situation, as game developers engaged in the Nvidia GameWorks program were still not allowed to work with AMD to optimize the code for their hardware. Something which Nvidia initially denied but later Nvidia’s Tom Petersen and Rev Lebaradian admitted. Witcher 3 developers, CD Projekt Red, reaffirmed this again two days ago.

And people still defend it? I don't get it...I mean sure it's easier for the dev to use those but after actually knowing it somewhat gimps AMD from the full experience, why use it? Market leader doesn't matter what so ever, that's pure discrimination (Since these days we call everything discrimination, why not this). Yes, You can disable the fur detail or what ever but that's exactly that, then you don't get the full game experience anymore, do you now?

What I do wonder, could they use both TressFX and HW? Like, Nvidia owners can use HW and AMD owners Tress? rolleyes.gif It should be doable I think? I'm no programmer but since the card ID string is there, just give it two paths to run or something like that?
Edited by MadRabbit - 5/19/15 at 6:00am
AMD
(13 items)
 
Intel
(7 items)
 
Home Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX-8350 Asus M5A99FX Pro MSI Radeon R9-280x MSI Radeon R9-280x 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial Ballistics 8GB DDR3 Cruical MX100 128GB SSD Samsung DVD-RW Cooler Master Hyper Evo 212 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Technical Preview Philips 55PFS6909/12 Logitech MX3200 Chieftec 750W 
Mouse
Khaos Limited Edition 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U ACER BA50 AMD HD8750M 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
750GB HDD Windows 10 TP 15,6" 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
AMD Opteron 2373EE AMD Opteron 2373EE Dell Socket Fr5 XGI® Z9s with 32MB DDRII VRAM 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
32GB DDRII ECC 1TB HDD 7200rpm N/A Passive 
OSPowerCase
Ubuntu Server 600W Dell PowerEdge CS24-NV7 
  hide details  
Reply
AMD
(13 items)
 
Intel
(7 items)
 
Home Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX-8350 Asus M5A99FX Pro MSI Radeon R9-280x MSI Radeon R9-280x 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial Ballistics 8GB DDR3 Cruical MX100 128GB SSD Samsung DVD-RW Cooler Master Hyper Evo 212 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Technical Preview Philips 55PFS6909/12 Logitech MX3200 Chieftec 750W 
Mouse
Khaos Limited Edition 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U ACER BA50 AMD HD8750M 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
750GB HDD Windows 10 TP 15,6" 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
AMD Opteron 2373EE AMD Opteron 2373EE Dell Socket Fr5 XGI® Z9s with 32MB DDRII VRAM 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
32GB DDRII ECC 1TB HDD 7200rpm N/A Passive 
OSPowerCase
Ubuntu Server 600W Dell PowerEdge CS24-NV7 
  hide details  
Reply
post #7 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by denman View Post

I assume he is referring to this:
HairWorks for Witcher 3 and the whole PhysX fiasco with Project Cars (not only on AMD cards but older Nvidia cards as well) causes a slippery slope. I understand Nvidia is the market share leader and developers would want to work closely with them, but there should be some line you should cross-- such as specifically devoiting time to something like, oh say HairWorks, that you can now not share with AMD or work with them for optimization on because of NDAs.

But there isnt a PsyX issue with Project Cars, that is just people being ignorant lemmings.

As for the quote, that could be interpreted in a couple ways. "the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products" could mean Nvidia does not allow developers to alter the HairWorks source code themselves. Which means Nvidia develops the code and Nvidia optimizes it for certain GPU generations with updates. Understandable why the code cannot be optimized for AMD cards then. Most people are interpreting it though as the dev's are not allowed to optimize their game for AMD if they use HairWorks, which looks to be completely false. Seems to be another example of mass ignorance to me. People just want to point fingers at someone without knowing who when their PC doesnt run well.
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
Reply
Gaming
(17 items)
 
Gaming PC
(20 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
7700K AS Rock Z170 OC Formula Titan X Pascal 2050MHz 64GB DDR4-3200 14-14-14-34-1T 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
950 EVO m.2 OS drive 850 EVO 1TB games drive Intel 730 series 500GB games drive Custom water cooling 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Win 10 Pro x64 AMH A399U E-Element mechanical, black switches, Vortex b... EVGA G3 1kw 
CaseMouseAudioAudio
Lian-Li PC-V1000L Redragon M901 LH Labs Pulse X Infinity DAC Custom built balanced tube amp with SS diamond ... 
Audio
MrSpeakers Alpha Prime 
  hide details  
Reply
post #8 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

But there isnt a PsyX issue with Project Cars, that is just people being ignorant lemmings.

As for the quote, that could be interpreted in a couple ways. "the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products" could mean Nvidia does not allow developers to alter the HairWorks source code themselves. Which means Nvidia develops the code and Nvidia optimizes it for certain GPU generations with updates. Understandable why the code cannot be optimized for AMD cards then. Most people are interpreting it though as the dev's are not allowed to optimize their game for AMD if they use HairWorks, which looks to be completely false. Seems to be another example of mass ignorance to me. People just want to point fingers at someone without knowing who when their PC doesnt run well.

It can't really be taken any other way. You are not reading the quote (from Nvidia)
Quote:
"Many of you have asked us if AMD Radeon GPUs would be able to run NVIDIA’s HairWorks technology – the answer is yes! However, unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products. Radeon users are encouraged to disable NVIDIA HairWorks if the performance is below expectations."
post #9 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by denman View Post


It can't really be taken any other way. You are not reading the quote (from Nvidia)
Quote:
"Many of you have asked us if AMD Radeon GPUs would be able to run NVIDIA’s HairWorks technology – the answer is yes! However, unsatisfactory performance may be experienced as the code of this feature cannot be optimized for AMD products. Radeon users are encouraged to disable NVIDIA HairWorks if the performance is below expectations."

And nVidia cards can't run Mantle. Some features will be vendor specific.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRabbit View Post

Quote:
number of prominent game developers went on to publicly criticize Nvidia’s GameWorks program describing it as a “BlackBox” with some developers going as far as to call it “unusable”.
Quote:
this did not alter the situation, as game developers engaged in the Nvidia GameWorks program were still not allowed to work with AMD to optimize the code for their hardware. Something which Nvidia initially denied but later Nvidia’s Tom Petersen and Rev Lebaradian admitted. Witcher 3 developers, CD Projekt Red, reaffirmed this again two days ago.

And people still defend it? I don't get it...I mean sure it's easier for the dev to use those but after actually knowing it somewhat gimps AMD from the full experience, why use it? Market leader doesn't matter what so ever, that's pure discrimination (Since these days we call everything discrimination, why not this). Yes, You can disable the fur detail or what ever but that's exactly that, then you don't get the full game experience anymore, do you now?

What I do wonder, could they use both TressFX and HW? Like, Nvidia owners can use HW and AMD owners Tress? rolleyes.gif It should be doable I think? I'm no programmer but since the card ID string is there, just give it two paths to run or something like that?

All AMD have to do is work with CDPR and implement TressFX for AMD.

And GameWorks isn't black box. If the developers want the source code, they license it.
Snowdevil
(16 items)
 
ASUS G750JM
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
[i7 4790K @ 4.4 GHz (1.186v)] [Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark S] [nVidia Geforce GTX 1080] [nVidia Geforce GTX 1080] 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
[G.Skill 32GB DDR3 2133 MHz] [Crucial MX100 256GB] [Phanteks PH-TC12DX] [Win 10.1 Pro] 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
[LG 29UM65 (2560x1080)] [QNIX Evo II LED (2560x1440)] [WASD v2 Tenkeyless] [NZXT Hale90 v2 ] 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
[ThermalTake GT10 Snow Edition] [Razer Mamba - Chroma] [Razer Kabuto] [Razer Man O' War] 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770HQ Intel HM87 Express Chipset Geforce GTX 860M 8GB DDR3L 1600 MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung SSD EVO DVD-RW Stock Windows 8.1 
Monitor
1920x1080 TN 
  hide details  
Reply
Snowdevil
(16 items)
 
ASUS G750JM
(9 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
[i7 4790K @ 4.4 GHz (1.186v)] [Asus Sabertooth Z97 Mark S] [nVidia Geforce GTX 1080] [nVidia Geforce GTX 1080] 
RAMHard DriveCoolingOS
[G.Skill 32GB DDR3 2133 MHz] [Crucial MX100 256GB] [Phanteks PH-TC12DX] [Win 10.1 Pro] 
MonitorMonitorKeyboardPower
[LG 29UM65 (2560x1080)] [QNIX Evo II LED (2560x1440)] [WASD v2 Tenkeyless] [NZXT Hale90 v2 ] 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
[ThermalTake GT10 Snow Edition] [Razer Mamba - Chroma] [Razer Kabuto] [Razer Man O' War] 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770HQ Intel HM87 Express Chipset Geforce GTX 860M 8GB DDR3L 1600 MHz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Samsung SSD EVO DVD-RW Stock Windows 8.1 
Monitor
1920x1080 TN 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 94
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

And nVidia cards can't run Mantle. Some features will be vendor specific.
All AMD have to do is work with CDPR and implement TressFX for AMD.

And GameWorks isn't black box. If the developers want the source code, they license it.

Thats up to the Dev not up to AMD. The dev is selling the game not AMD so they need to cater to their customers so why not implement both at the start already? You buy an car from an dealership not from the factory. Easy as that. Stop blaming AMD in this crap.
AMD
(13 items)
 
Intel
(7 items)
 
Home Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX-8350 Asus M5A99FX Pro MSI Radeon R9-280x MSI Radeon R9-280x 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial Ballistics 8GB DDR3 Cruical MX100 128GB SSD Samsung DVD-RW Cooler Master Hyper Evo 212 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Technical Preview Philips 55PFS6909/12 Logitech MX3200 Chieftec 750W 
Mouse
Khaos Limited Edition 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U ACER BA50 AMD HD8750M 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
750GB HDD Windows 10 TP 15,6" 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
AMD Opteron 2373EE AMD Opteron 2373EE Dell Socket Fr5 XGI® Z9s with 32MB DDRII VRAM 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
32GB DDRII ECC 1TB HDD 7200rpm N/A Passive 
OSPowerCase
Ubuntu Server 600W Dell PowerEdge CS24-NV7 
  hide details  
Reply
AMD
(13 items)
 
Intel
(7 items)
 
Home Server
(11 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
AMD FX-8350 Asus M5A99FX Pro MSI Radeon R9-280x MSI Radeon R9-280x 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial Ballistics 8GB DDR3 Cruical MX100 128GB SSD Samsung DVD-RW Cooler Master Hyper Evo 212 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 10 Technical Preview Philips 55PFS6909/12 Logitech MX3200 Chieftec 750W 
Mouse
Khaos Limited Edition 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-4200U ACER BA50 AMD HD8750M 4GB DDR3 
Hard DriveOSMonitor
750GB HDD Windows 10 TP 15,6" 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
AMD Opteron 2373EE AMD Opteron 2373EE Dell Socket Fr5 XGI® Z9s with 32MB DDRII VRAM 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
32GB DDRII ECC 1TB HDD 7200rpm N/A Passive 
OSPowerCase
Ubuntu Server 600W Dell PowerEdge CS24-NV7 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Video Game News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [WFFC]Nvidia Responds To Witcher 3 GameWorks Controversy, PC Gamers On The Offensive