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post #101 of 208
HBM was a marketing mistake. The money would have been better spent on developing exclusive software features like Nvidia has done.
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post #102 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

HBM was a marketing mistake. The money would have been better spent on developing exclusive software features like Nvidia has done.

Nvidia is only getting away with gameworks because they are already on their way to a monopoly and no one can stop them. AMD can't afford to act so arrogantly.
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post #103 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

I realize that, the comparison I'm making is the driver trying to keep the card from using more VRAM than the game wants to, which is what Nvidia is doing by trying to only use the 3.5GB partition exclusively.

My guess is that a lot of the memory management gains they are talking about are probably geared more towards DX12,since that's been their focus for a while. The question is what happens when SoM tries to force 6GB of textures into a 4GB card, and what tricks the driver has/uses to mitigate that situation.

Edit: and the word coming out of the presentation yesterday was bandwidth only in the double range (which is still impressive, of course).
http://techreport.com/review/28294/amd-high-bandwidth-memory-explained/2

Edit2: And for the record, I think 4GB is going to work out fine for the 390X because I've thought and said that 4GB is enough (and current VRAM use numbers are inflated) for quite some time, but what bothers me is how as soon as AMD says it, then it must be gospel.

To that end, I can think of at least 4 reasons why they are suddenly talking 4GB is enough:

1. All the new HBM cards are going to be limited 4GB (seems fairly likely).
2. The "regular" HBM cards will be 4GB and the "halo" card (maybe the WCE) will have 8GB, and they want to downplay the difference. (possible).
3. The HBM cards will be 8GB, but since there are only going to be 2 of them they want to continue to make the Hawaii-evolution cards with 4GB with their new memory-management sauce seem advantageous against the 980. (less likely)
4. The want to force expectations low, so when they launch all the new cards with 8GB there is shock and joy. (not sure I believe their marketing department is that smart).
Edited by Forceman - 5/20/15 at 7:48am
post #104 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Edit2: And for the record, I think 4GB is going to work out fine for the 390X because I've thought and said that 4GB is enough (and current VRAM use numbers are inflated) for quite some time, but what bothers me is how as soon as AMD says it, then it must be gospel.

Never said it was gospel. I said a long time ago that if they didn't launch with 8gb it'll be a failure. People looking at this line of products are getting their wallets ready for 1440p/1600p/2160p surround setups and 4GB isn't going to cut it on UHD+ multi-monitor setups.
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post #105 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Nvidia is only getting away with gameworks because they are already on their way to a monopoly and no one can stop them. AMD can't afford to act so arrogantly.

This is absolutely untrue. Between consumers and devs, only a vocal minority really disprove of gameworks and physX and the like, and only on a matter of principle. The only reason AMD is in the position they're in now is because they didn't do it already.
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post #106 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

HBM was a marketing mistake. The money would have been better spent on developing exclusive software features like Nvidia has done.

No, HBM is NOT a marketing mistake. It really is the future of the graphic industry. The only problem is HBM GEN1 is a marketing mistake. GEN2 will be the best thing since sliced bread.

Not only does it not have the 4GB limit that a single 4 stack has in GEN1 (GEN2 is 64GB on the same 4 stack), but the bandwidth of GEN2 is DOUBLE that of GEN1 (64 GBps vs 128 GBps).

That is why I can't wait for the GEN2 cards to come out, and just totally bypass this new bleeding edge memory system, which WILL revolutionize memory for the next 10-15 years.

Odds are, the first GEN2 card with be the nVidia Pascals. I don't see AMD scrapping brand new GEN1 cards that fast after launch.
post #107 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Never said it was gospel.

Yeah, I didn't mean you, I just meant in general. Who knows, maybe it'll still have 8GB, but if it doesn't you are going to see a lot of about-faces on how much VRAM is enough. I'm just preparing myself for those posts.
post #108 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

No, HBM is NOT a marketing mistake. It really is the future of the graphic industry. The only problem is HBM GEN1 is a marketing mistake. GEN2 will be the best thing since sliced bread.

Except you can't get one without the other, and I'd rather see them work out the bugs (if any) in Gen 1 so Gen 2 is really the leap forward we need.

Edit: I hate accidentally writing in the new post section of the mobile site instead of the editing old post one. Sorry for the double post.
post #109 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Except you can't get one without the other, and I'd rather see them work out the bugs (if any) in Gen 1 so Gen 2 is really the leap forward we need.

Edit: I hate accidentally writing in the new post section of the mobile site instead of the editing old post one. Sorry for the double post.

Agreed. You need GEN1 before you can have GEN2 ... but that doesn't mean that I would bother buying a GEN1 card ... from AMD OR nVidia. I'll let some other poor schlub deal with the bleeding edge issues. biggrin.gif
post #110 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganf View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceman View Post

Not in that post, no, but in the next one yes. Because using the driver to manage how much VRAM the card is using (or actively managing its use on card) to overcome a VRAM limitation sounds an awful lot like what AMD's CTO used to justify 4GB being enough.

BTW, you still "certain" the 390X will have 8GB?

It sounds similar, but Fiji won't be putting assets in a part of the pool that's 10 times slower than the rest, and HBM has what, 5 times more bandwidth than the GDDR5 on a 970?

You could probably take the 970's memory management scheme and put it on Fiji and it would actually work, because the card works, but I don't think AMD is stopping at just that, they make it sound like they're cutting down on wasted memory usage too. It's been the policy of card and game makers alike to just front-load as much as possible to prevent stutter, it's not unreasonable to think they've found a fix with that.

Raghu may be able to chime in on whether tiling helps with this.


Nah HBM is more like over 17x faster on bandwidth than a 970 lol.
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