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[Various] AMD HBM presentation and slides - Page 17

post #161 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by F3ERS 2 ASH3S View Post


One thing that has been said is that it allows for a higher bandwidth, well if the usage of more ram = meaning that for higher resolutions was because the memory had to be queued to the ram due the the slowness of the ram itself thus causing a need for a higher about of ram usage,

however with a higher bandwidth would mean that the gpu itself could access it faster thus allowing more information to be processed soon which would keep the queuing down lower that if it was needed for GDDR5?

I have been reading the debate on the tech and so much talking about well if its not 8GB then it will flop.. Who is to say that the higher bandwidth isn't actually going to perform better in higher resolutions at 4GB HBM than 8GB GDDR5, In the end isn't the Bandwidth that allows for better frames anyway?
^I agree with this, and the tech is needing to change due to the higher demands that the larger resolutions are going to have.
Since the beginning of them announcing this, I was thinking that perhaps AMD will use this as an L3 cache or similar for the Zen or k12 chips.. ESPECIALLY the APUs which have been known to be having a hard time with ddr3,

All in all yes this is a new tech that AMD has been backing.. and nVidia will have its own share of troubles implementing it with the HBM2 however depending on how the bandwidth affects the numbers NO ONE at this point can honestly know which is better and the red vs green debate isn't really something that applies as much here... This is like comparing SD to DDR ram IMO these are different techs that we all knew where coming into the pipeline and was going to be needed.

Well, we'll all find out when the dang thing gets released. :p I'm skeptical, but I'll be eyeing the reviews. Nobody benchmarks GPUs with heavily modded Skyrim, though.

 

I think having 4gb of Vram in the top of the line product will hurt the product in terms of marketing because random consumer sees 12gb of TitanX vram vs 4gb of HBM vram, I bet the layman is bound to think the former is superior in every way that matters.

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post #162 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Well, we'll all find out when the dang thing gets released. tongue.gif  I'm skeptical, but I'll be eyeing the reviews. Nobody benchmarks GPUs with heavily modded Skyrim, though.

I think having 4gb of Vram in the top of the line product will hurt the product in terms of marketing because random consumer sees 12gb of TitanX vram vs 4gb of HBM vram, I bet the layman is bound to think the former is superior in every way that matters.

very well said.. I seem to have missed that in my thoughts, I can see how loading elements that end up being static into vRAM could cause a memory bottle neck, but that is very few and far inbetween, also with Mantle Vulkan and DX12 the CPU limitation will not be as present and force the GPU to render more faster.. thus where HBM will really shine.

The most that I can say is the dynamic of the VRAM is changing not only with tech but also the better APIs, heck we had been complaining about the DX11 overhead since it pretty much came out, then got caught in a console situation where we where stuck on DX9 and terrible console ports to PCs.

Also, even this is a new tech, doesn't this mean that the cost of VRAM is going to go down as the materials themselves are going down?


EDIT: I think you are correct about the perception of the random consumer..
Edited by F3ERS 2 ASH3S - 5/21/15 at 10:59am
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post #163 of 208
Re: http://anandtech.com/show/9266/amd-hbm-deep-dive/4
Quote:
As we mentioned before, R9 290X spends 15-20% of its 250W power budget on DRAM, or roughly 38-50W of power on an absolute basis. Meanwhile by AMD’s own reckoning, GDDR5 is good for 10.66GB/sec of bandwidth per watt of power, which works out to 30W+ via that calculation. HBM on the other hand delivers better than 35GB/sec of bandwidth per watt, an immediate 3x gain in energy efficiency per watt.



Maybe I'm getting it wrong but if it's only going to save 15W then what is AMD thinking? Will it just be a testbed for Gen2 HBM , with Gen 1 HBM in halo products?
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post #164 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

Re: http://anandtech.com/show/9266/amd-hbm-deep-dive/4
Maybe I'm getting it wrong but if it's only going to save 15W then what is AMD thinking? Will it just be a testbed for Gen2 HBM , with Gen 1 HBM in halo products?
Well it saves power and is very much faster at the same time, unless I'm missing something here too.
post #165 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

Re: http://anandtech.com/show/9266/amd-hbm-deep-dive/4
Maybe I'm getting it wrong but if it's only going to save 15W then what is AMD thinking? Will it just be a testbed for Gen2 HBM , with Gen 1 HBM in halo products?

Possibly more saving from the memory controller.
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post #166 of 208
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoxile View Post

Possibly more saving from the memory controller.

Exactly, those numbers that were posted seem to be for the memory chips only. The whole memory subsystem should be considerably more.
 
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post #167 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post

Re: http://anandtech.com/show/9266/amd-hbm-deep-dive/4
Maybe I'm getting it wrong but if it's only going to save 15W then what is AMD thinking? Will it just be a testbed for Gen2 HBM , with Gen 1 HBM in halo products?

thats only the DRAM power. The memory controller power also drastically reduces as you do not have to drive power through a Printed Circuit Board. Rather now the signals are routed on the interposer with wiring which is in the microns range. Here is a paper which talks about power consumption of the memory subsystem of a modern GPU( memory controller + memory chips) . (see figure 1)

https://users.soe.ucsc.edu/~jzhao/files/islped209-zhao.pdf

The % varies from 37.5% on the HD 6990 which is two HD 6970 chips on a single board (each chip with a 256 bit GDDR5 memory bus) to 60% on the Quadro FX 5800 based on the GTX 285 (which has a 512 bit GDDR3 memory controller)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_quadro_fx_5800_us.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_Quadro#Quadro_FX_M

http://www.amd.com/en-gb/products/graphics/desktop/6000/6990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_6000_Series#Radeon_HD_6900

So around 40% of a GPUs' total TDP is used by memory subsystem (memory controller + memory chips) . For a R9 290X which has a 512 bit GDDR5 memory controller and draws upto 250W even at stock speeds thats roughly 100W. HBM cuts that by a factor of 3.5 as it has 3.5 times the bandwidth per watt. 100w / 3.5 = 28w roughly. So you see the power savings are roughly 70W. thumb.gif

My calculations are rough as we do not know how much the exact power consumption of R9 290X's 512 bit memory controller and the 16 GDDR5 chips used are. Anyway I would guess the power savings are definitely above 50w. thumb.gif
Edited by raghu78 - 5/21/15 at 9:51pm
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post #168 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkwizzie View Post

Well, we'll all find out when the dang thing gets released. tongue.gif  I'm skeptical, but I'll be eyeing the reviews. Nobody benchmarks GPUs with heavily modded Skyrim, though.

I think having 4gb of Vram in the top of the line product will hurt the product in terms of marketing because random consumer sees 12gb of TitanX vram vs 4gb of HBM vram, I bet the layman is bound to think the former is superior in every way that matters.

depends, not even the 12gb titanx does sustain 60 fps at 1920x1080 for witcher 3.
for a card that cost 1200 euro here one would expect it to with a new game.
if fiji has 4gb and perform in the ballpark its pretty good deal at a lower price point.
if fiji can sustain 60 fps in witcher 3 then its a better card by far.
I know what I would buy.
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post #169 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopper View Post


depends, not even the 12gb titanx does sustain 60 fps at 1920x1080 for witcher 3.
for a card that cost 1200 euro here one would expect it to with a new game.
if fiji has 4gb and perform in the ballpark its pretty good deal at a lower price point.
if fiji can sustain 60 fps in witcher 3 then its a better card by far.
I know what I would buy.

I'm not even sure the average person even knows what fps is. Are you saying your level of knowledge is equivalent to the average consumer?

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post #170 of 208
Quote:
Originally Posted by flopper View Post

depends, not even the 12gb titanx does sustain 60 fps at 1920x1080 for witcher 3.
for a card that cost 1200 euro here one would expect it to with a new game.
if fiji has 4gb and perform in the ballpark its pretty good deal at a lower price point.
if fiji can sustain 60 fps in witcher 3 then its a better card by far.
I know what I would buy.


Got those pictures from this thread they also list this source for more.
Edited by ALT F4 - 5/21/15 at 11:35pm
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