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AMD zen

post #1 of 135
Thread Starter 
It seems to me that this will either make or break AMD. past couple years, AMD kept killing off their projects.

what do you guys think on this?

also, will their be any reason to get zen over skylake/broadlake? (both 14nm transistors)
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post #2 of 135
Skylake and Zen are still pretty far out (like we don't have good numbers for them at all) but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be a consumer level 6-core zen part. Supposed to be 40% higher IPC than excavator (so like 60% higher than piledriver? that's Haswell level)
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post #3 of 135
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Skylake and Zen are still pretty far out (like we don't have good numbers for them at all) but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be a consumer level 6-core zen part. Supposed to be 40% higher IPC than excavator (so like 60% higher than piledriver? that's Haswell level)

10 min research shows zen is very promising.

but it just seems like to good to be true all of a sudden lol

what i gathered from a quick research seems, IMO,

one thing for sure it seems is that 2016 amd CPU's wont be on par with 2016 intel CPU's
so that would mean the pricepoint for their 2016 amd chips would be once again, considerably cheaper than 2016 intel cpu.


so if the price point is not true, that will be a bust for AMD.

and another thing seems that speed wise, it has to keep true to its claims for it to be even worth considering.

did i get the gist right?
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post #4 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMKR View Post

10 min research shows zen is very promising.

This is all speculation, and rumors.

At this point, there's really not enough information to have any idea on how it will work or perform.
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post #5 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMKR View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Skylake and Zen are still pretty far out (like we don't have good numbers for them at all) but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be a consumer level 6-core zen part. Supposed to be 40% higher IPC than excavator (so like 60% higher than piledriver? that's Haswell level)

10 min research shows zen is very promising.

but it just seems like to good to be true all of a sudden lol

what i gathered from a quick research seems, IMO,

one thing for sure it seems is that 2016 amd CPU's wont be on par with 2016 intel CPU's
so that would mean the pricepoint for their 2016 amd chips would be once again, considerably cheaper than 2016 intel cpu.


so if the price point is not true, that will be a bust for AMD.

and another thing seems that speed wise, it has to keep true to its claims for it to be even worth considering.

did i get the gist right?

Keller is back. So are a lot of really good GPU guys that AMD lost. A large part of the problem with AMD the last few years is that they lost a lot of their talent to other companies. GCN is pretty good, so is Jaguar. But Bulldozer to me feels like Keller and company wanted to pass everything off to the next generation of chip designers. And it completely failed. So he came back to save the day. At least that's what I think.

I'd even say Bulldozer family is quite good when used as intended. It's an architecture designed to bring you the most multi-thread performance possible. The problem comes from the fact that it's not as efficient as Intel and that consumers don't need multi-thread that much generally. And when you make 2m/4c APUs out of it, you throw away the benefits of the architecture. Not to mention that marketing really blew up in their faces. There was a lot of "look how bad FX is in Skyrim it only gets 90fps and Intel gets like 200fps!", which didn't help anything at all.

Bulldozer was a riskier design. It had bigger trade offs built in, like sacrificing single thread performance to increase multi-thread. Zen looks like it takes a lot less risks like that. IMO it has a lot less chance to be really bad and a lot less chance to be really good as a result. I'm expecting it to be something along the lines of "better than Bulldozer family, not amazing but pretty good compared to Intel"

I'm holding onto my FX 8350 until it's time though.
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post #6 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by IMKR View Post

10 min research shows zen is very promising.

but it just seems like to good to be true all of a sudden lol

what i gathered from a quick research seems, IMO,

one thing for sure it seems is that 2016 amd CPU's wont be on par with 2016 intel CPU's
so that would mean the pricepoint for their 2016 amd chips would be once again, considerably cheaper than 2016 intel cpu.


so if the price point is not true, that will be a bust for AMD.

and another thing seems that speed wise, it has to keep true to its claims for it to be even worth considering.

did i get the gist right?


Everything you are saying is just speculation with nothing at all to corroborate any of it. It is make or break so my bet is that they come out with something very good.
post #7 of 135
Best attitude toward Zen I think is to understand that there's a lot of room for potential and the bar has been set low. We have Piledriver on desktop which is very long in the tooth. And we have Intel which has been primarily focused on mobile with mediocre performance per clock gains at the expense of maximum overclocking headroom.

Obviously AMD isn't going to come out and say Zen is looking just alright. They hyped up Bulldozer pretty well too. But things are a lot different from back then. FX 8350 will be about 4 years old by the time Zen drops. HEDT is going to be a good improvement no matter what for AMD, unless they completely botch Zen. And with Keller on the job, I don't think that's going to happen.

And people should be positive about things too. AMD is going all in on a high performance x86 core. They postponed both ARM CPUs and APUs to bring us high performance x86 CPUs. It's their high priority right now and I have a lot of hope. Bulldozer family was a huge disaster. They designed an architecture designed for multi-thread performance, and it didn't take off in the markets they thought it would. So they tried to salvage their plans by turning it into mobile chips and lower end stuff in APUs, which basically erased all of Bulldozer family's advantages, which is primarily just really good multi-thread performance for the cost. It's a huge departure from what they've done in the last few years and what they were aiming for.
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post #8 of 135
The most-exciting thing about Zen, to me, are the changes in cache architecture. Vishera has horribly-slow L3. Apparently there are some nice bells and whistles wrt cache coherency, multi-socket operations, and such intrinsic to Piledriver that us desktop guys never got to enjoy.

The other thing that Zen could fix is the branch predictor and related widgets. In my very-limited experience comparing a modern AMD uarch to a modern Intel uarch (Steamroller vs. Haswell), it seems to me that the Intel chips do a better job of recovering from operations that force flushing of the cache. Whether or not the branch predictor is really related to that, or whether that is indicative of the superior performance of Intel L1/L2 cache, is unknown to me.

Improving cache performance will go a long way towards helping Zen handle poorly-optimized code run well. That's one of Intel's strengths, really: legacy code, or crap that just hasn't been terribly well-optimized, suffers more on modern AMD chips than it does on Haswell.
post #9 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by drmrlordx View Post

The most-exciting thing about Zen, to me, are the changes in cache architecture. Vishera has horribly-slow L3. Apparently there are some nice bells and whistles wrt cache coherency, multi-socket operations, and such intrinsic to Piledriver that us desktop guys never got to enjoy.

The other thing that Zen could fix is the branch predictor and related widgets. In my very-limited experience comparing a modern AMD uarch to a modern Intel uarch (Steamroller vs. Haswell), it seems to me that the Intel chips do a better job of recovering from operations that force flushing of the cache. Whether or not the branch predictor is really related to that, or whether that is indicative of the superior performance of Intel L1/L2 cache, is unknown to me.

Improving cache performance will go a long way towards helping Zen handle poorly-optimized code run well. That's one of Intel's strengths, really: legacy code, or crap that just hasn't been terribly well-optimized, suffers more on modern AMD chips than it does on Haswell.
The branch predictor in Steamroller is actually rather good, the problem is that it still can't reduce the misses enough to compensate for the ridiculously long pipeline the construction cores have. The L3 is indeed ridiculous, the latency for Visheras L2 is 19 clocks, Haswell's L3 is 20, while Vishera's L3 is an absolutely massive 87.
post #10 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tojara View Post

The branch predictor in Steamroller is actually rather good, the problem is that it still can't reduce the misses enough to compensate for the ridiculously long pipeline the construction cores have. The L3 is indeed ridiculous, the latency for Visheras L2 is 19 clocks, Haswell's L3 is 20, while Vishera's L3 is an absolutely massive 87.

Cache latency has been a problem for AMD for a long time. The only reason Intel was able to compete with the K7 series at all was because the Athlon Thunderbird and AXP both had very poor L2 cache performance compared to Intel's P3 and P4 offerings. As I recall, they never really fixed the problem in the K8, either, but it didn't matter until Intel finally offered something better than Netburst junk. Even the Stars cores didn't match Intel on cache latency.

Vishera's terrible L3 performance is probably one reason we haven't seen any more big-core CPU's from AMD since Vishera. A chip with more than four cores really needs the L3 to perform optimally. The quad-core APU's and Athlons can live without it, just like Athlon II's did in the K10.5 days.

It didn't used to be that way. You sometimes hear claims that the Pentium 4 EE was the first consumer CPU to use an L3 cache. That honor actually belonged to AMD's K6-III in 1999, which had on-die L2 and leveraged the Super 7 motherboard cache as L3. The three-level cache made the K6-III faster than the P3 on integer operations.
     
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