Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD CPUs › AMD zen
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

AMD zen - Page 12

post #111 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Why does 5% difference matter between AMD/NVIDIA GPUs?...
The power consumption difference is being hyped heavily. It's amusing given how many people snapped up GTX 480s, even in SLI. However a 390X 8 GB, factory overclocked, can really need a lot of watts. That, in turns, requires better cooling and a better PSU.

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/R9_390X_Gaming/31.html
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/R9_390X_Gaming/28.html

If you're running a water loop with a lot of dissipation area it's not so bad but trying to cool such a card on air without a lot of noise is hard. Also, the investment of the water block wipes out some of the savings over running a Nvidia card on air.

Still, after the way the 970 was handled I'd buy an AMD card on principle. However, I can also see environmentalists having some point about the power usage. Gaming, though, is a luxury activity. If you really want to be green then just run SNES emulation on an Atom or something.
post #112 of 135
Could AMD zen come early?
post #113 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Could AMD zen come early?

Given AMD's past track record, i think we should be happy if they don't delay it. biggrin.gif

Anyway, if Zen does get Haswell IPC, i think even gaming-wise it will be a success. In the sense, that if it's mediocre at gaming, it will automatically mean that most Haswells out there, having less cores, will be terrible. Logic says that game developers won't push IPC requirements further but rather increase their coding efforts to better use more cores, since Intel has also increased core count. So an 8 core Zen will be fine.

Basicaly, if Zen is mediocre at games, it means that automatically, most of the corresponding Intels, will be much worse, due to less cores. So if Zen gets Ivy Bridge IPC and it's bad at games, imagine how bad all Intel CPUs with Ivy Bridge will be (with less cores)! Do you see that happening? I don't!
Edited by Undervolter - 10/20/15 at 11:54pm
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
post #114 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

Logic says that game developers won't push IPC requirements further but rather increase their coding efforts to better use more cores, since Intel has also increased core count.
I wonder if it will still be a mixed bag. Console-oriented development will favor lots of threading but some developers already seem to be using few threads, even for upcoming DX 12 titles. Ashes, for instance, performed very well on an i3 — better than on an 8370, with a 290X. That points to the game not using more than four threads with any seriousness. I wouldn't even be surprised if it's just using two. This is rather sad, even though the game shows massive improvements for AMD GPUs like the 290X under DX 12.

Given the popularity of the anemic Anniversary Pentium, I suppose some developers are choosing to just use two threads to avoid locking those buyers out of their engine. Intel's stupid Pentium is just another blow to AMD in that respect. It's the anti-FX chip with its lame limitation of 2 threads only.

Regardless.. if Zen can match Haswell's IPC then there is nothing to worry about in terms of objective gaming performance. The only concern will be that Intel owners won't have a reason to switch unless, maybe, they're using that Pentium and developers bother to use more threads seriously. MMOs in particular seem to be very minimal on threading.
post #115 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

I wonder if it will still be a mixed bag. Console-oriented development will favor lots of threading but some developers already seem to be using few threads, even for upcoming DX 12 titles. Ashes, for instance, performed very well on an i3 — better than on an 8370, with a 290X. That points to the game not using more than four threads with any seriousness. I wouldn't even be surprised if it's just using two. This is rather sad, even though the game shows massive improvements for AMD GPUs like the 290X under DX 12.

Given the popularity of the anemic Anniversary Pentium, I suppose some developers are choosing to just use two threads to avoid locking those buyers out of their engine. Intel's stupid Pentium is just another blow to AMD in that respect. It's the anti-FX chip with its lame limitation of 2 threads only.

Regardless.. if Zen can match Haswell's IPC then there is nothing to worry about in terms of objective gaming performance. The only concern will be that Intel owners won't have a reason to switch unless, maybe, they're using that Pentium and developers bother to use more threads seriously. MMOs in particular seem to be very minimal on threading.

Yeah, developers actually want to make money. And even Pentium G users or i3 users, are potential customers. And their money is just as good as an 8 core user's. Also making a game that can use many threads and actually load many cores well, requires both a heavy game (which they avoid, because again they think of weak rigs) and more encoding effort. It's much easier to program for 1-2 cores than for high parallelism. It's doable, but it's apparently tough work and most devs want to avoid tough work. I don't play many modern games ( i think i must have about 5-6 post2007 games), but i have Dragon Age Origins, which although old now, it's a shining example of multithreaded game. I think i played it on FX6300 and i kinda remember that i had like 100% load in 5 cores? Maybe it was also the fact that i had weak GPU and the game was trying to compensate using more CPU, i don't know, but for its age, it was very well coded for many cores. Dragon Age Inquisition, is also using 7 cores i think with pretty high load on all cores. So it's doable, but devs don't want to sweat.

But bottom line is this: If Zen is a flop at games, ALL Intel CPUs of corresponding IPC with less cores than Zen, will become even BIGGER flops. Because there are some (few, but still) games that actually benefit from many cores. So if Zen is a disaster, a big segment of current Intel users will also face the same or worse disaster. And i don't see it happening. For the same reasons you mention about devs worrying about Pentium and i3 users. They will NEVER send into obsolesence so easily, all i5 Sandy and Ivy users. Logic says that the first to feel the heat of new games, will be Pentium G and i3 users.

Pentium G users are already taking a taste of the bad future ahead of them, with games like FarCry4, Dragon Age Inquisition etc, that are made with 4 thread requirement and for now they can be ran with 3rd party hack, but they are entitled to no official support. FOR NOW. Time will come that the game will be so heavy, that those Pentium G and later i3 users will be seeing their fps drop below 30.
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
post #116 of 135
BF4 and Crysis 3 also have stuttering problems at higher settings according to Eurogamer's Pentium review.

However, a 4 thread requirement can still mean two heavy threads and two light threads (basically an i3-friendly setup), eh? That's not going to make an 8 core CPU shine when compared — unless you're talking about multitasking (gaming while encoding, for instance).
post #117 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by superstition222 View Post

BF4 and Crysis 3 also have stuttering problems at higher settings according to Eurogamer's Pentium review.

Well, i can't say i am surprised and i think as games become heavier, this will become more and more frequent...

Quote:
However, a 4 thread requirement can still mean two heavy threads and two light threads (basically an i3-friendly setup), eh? That's not going to make an 8 core CPU shine when compared — unless you're talking about multitasking (gaming while encoding, for instance).

Yeah, from what i 've seen from gamers posting charts here, even in games that load 8 FX cores, the total CPU utilization is like 50%. So, yet, it spreads on 8 cores, but the total use of the CPU is still like a FX 4 core at 100%. Which is why 2 core Intels do so well still. Even the new Witcher game, i remember that someone posted a chart, that shows that basically, it's optimized for 4 cores. It doesn't matter if a game can spread to 8 cores, if it loads them just 25% each. This is the "gaming drama" of the FX. The FX will give its best in games, when games become heavier, while using many cores. An FX 8 core that has load on 8 core, but overall CPU use is 50%, is just a bit better than an FX 4 core at the same clock. This is how Pentium G users still enjoy their days of glory. Because games are still in their majority made for 2-4 cores. The rare exceptions where the game actually makes good use of more than 4 cores, are also the case where you start seeing Pentium G users biting the dust. As games become more like this, they will be biting the dust more frequently or they won't be able to initialize the game at all or they will see a slide show at 15 fps instead of a game. But for that day to come, it means that games must start loading heavily something like 6 cores. Unfortunately for FX users that upgrade often, by that time Zen will be out. Fortunately for FX users that don't upgrade often, their FX will age well.
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
post #118 of 135
Still ST perf is very important.
Athlon x4 860K is just better choice against Pentium g3258
post #119 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

Still ST perf is very important.
Athlon x4 860K is just better choice against Pentium g3258

ST is important in games, but i think it's not going to be crucial in the future. Because of 1) resolution and 2) reality. I mean this. Intel is like Microsoft. It sets trend. And game devs have to face the reality out there. So, future gaming goes more 4K? IPC becomes less important for many years, as GPU bound games will be the norm. Good news for AMD. This leaves the other question. When dual cores where out, people often in forum were saying "don't buy quad, it will never be used". Time said otherwise. When quads were out, people said "don't buy 6 core, it won't be used". Time will say otherwise too. Because there are 2 ways ahead for game devs:

1) Continue with 1-4 cores and rely on higher IPC for ever more demanding games. Basically, rely on IPC for the increasingly heavier games. Doesn't seem very good strategy, as Intel isn't making huge leaps there and more importantly, it would mean, that those who bought i5s and i7s, threw their money in the drain and the perfect CPU is Pentium G and i3. It doesn't make sense.

2) Follow Intel's trend and start coding for more cores. So rely on more cores for lifting the increased weight. Good news for AMD, because it's already there!

Game developers have to adopt to reality. The reality is that Intel is making small progress in IPC and instead has turned more on core count. So even if Zen comes with Ivy IPC, i don't see the huge problem. Or Sandy and Ivy users will be also weeping. But if you were a game dev, would like to have Sandy and Ivy 5 and i7 users weeping? I wouldn't! Intel wouldn't be happy about that either. So how likely is that to happen? It's more likely to see Pentium G and i3 users weeping. Makes more sense for both game devs and Intel.

As for FX, this is why i believe that will age well too. I am pretty optimistic about Zen, but it will boil down to the capacity of AMD to make business deals and pubblicity.
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
Main
(16 items)
 
Dedicated Encoder
(15 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8320@4Ghz Gigabyte 970 UD3P rev2.1 Gainward GTX 750Ti Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 16GB (4x4GB) 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOptical Drive
Crucial BX100 250GB Western Digital Green 2TB LiteOn Blu-Ray Burner IHBS 112-2 LG BH16NS55 Blu-Ray Burner 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Scythe Katana 3 Windows 7 Pro 64bit ASUS 22" VS228HR Microsoft Wired Keyboard 600 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
EVGA 430W Sharkoon VG4-V Logitech M90 Onboard 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8300 Asrock 970 Extreme3 HIS 6570 Silence Corsair XMS3 1600Mhz 8GB (2x4GB) CAS9 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Plextor M6S 128GB Toshiba 2TB SATAIII LiteOn Blu Ray burner IHBS 112-2 Xigmatek Balder 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro 64bit Samsung S22B350H Microsoft Wired 600 Corsair VS350 
CaseMouseAudio
Lepa LPC 306 Logitech M90 Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
post #120 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undervolter View Post

It's much easier to program for 1-2 cores than for high parallelism. It's doable, but it's apparently tough work and most devs want to avoid tough work.

The sad thing is that it really is not that difficult, you just have to segment the logic cleanly (which is usually the case anyway) and use a single coordination thread for the high-level synchronization.
Code:
int32 _GameLogicControlThread(void* _logicData)
{
    GameLogicData* data = (GameLogicData*)_logicData;

    while (data->IsRunning()) {

        snooze_until_exact(data->NextUpdateTime());

        data->SuspendAction();  // Prevent user actions from changing logic / AI states

        data->SolvePendingActions(); // each action is solved in its own thread, returns once all completed
        data->SolveEnvironment(); // solve for completed actions (damaged buildings, picked up items, etc.)
                                                 // each environmental object that is marked dirty during the action solving
                                                 // updates in its own thread
        data->SolveAIEntityActions(); // any player AI, each solved in its own thread
        data->UpdatePlayerStates(); // update results for player(s).

        data->ResumeAction(); // allow user to make changes in game (blow up building, players, etc.)
   }

    return 0;
}

That's about all it would take to have 100% n-CPU performance scaling (I've written plenty of code like this).

There are some issues with logic dependencies, but sorting pending actions by time usually takes care of that thumb.gif

You usually want CPU-count + 25% threads and a group of queues (not just one, where lock contention will get in the way) for maximum performance. In certain situations, even Hyper-threading can result in a doubling of performance (when you have actual stalls in the code long enough to execute other logic).

...

For Zen, though, I'm most excited about the four dedicated FPU lanes and ALU lanes. Game code is not infrequently a mix of optimized integer code and floating point code. This should mean that Zen will perform better in those scenarios, relative to its base performance, than Intel CPUs with their shared ports arrangement.

I expect Zen will have 10% improvement in a few areas, and 100% improvement in a few others tongue.gif It'll all depend on which areas are most important thumb.gif
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: AMD CPUs
Overclock.net › Forums › AMD › AMD CPUs › AMD zen