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post #51 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssorkinman View Post

What bothers me is that even though the AVX2 instructions give it a huge advantage , my 4790K couldn't run anything that used it at stock speeds on stock cooling without it hitting 100 C .

Edit: Zen is purported to be able to use AVX2, it will be interesting to see if it affects the heat load similarly on it.

1) I haven't really followed closely the devopment of x265, so i don't know exactly how the dev is proceeding.*
2) In x264 most of the heavy lifting, is done by integer calculations. I have posted before in this forum, the reply of "Dark Shikari" (Jason Garrett-Glaser aka x264's dev), when asked about the improvements that AVX would bring. His reply was "FPU only, thus junk". x264 also uses AMD's extensions.

* x265 uses part of x264 code and has adopted several of its techniques. Thus i suspect it's still mainly integer operation, although i don't know 100%. I also don't know to what extent it is optimized to use AMD's extensions the way x264 does.

This is why FX always performs well in these things.
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post #52 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

You can manually assign thread count with any decent frontend

I know, i 've encoded like 2500 files. But i don't expect any benchmark to do that, because i am sure they don't even know how many threads are assigned automatically.
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post #53 of 135
Quote:
This is why FX always performs well in these things.

x264/x265 are tasks with almost perfect performance scaling by adding additional cores. Those were always the loads that piledriver was competitive in against ivy bridge, either way
Quote:
I know, i 've encoded like 2500 files. But i don't expect any benchmark to do that, because i am sure they don't even know how many threads are assigned automatically.

Well, there's not really a good benchmark package out there. Many people are doing their own benchmarks, i've done my own against haswell, skylake, piledriver etc. You can also test the impact of different thread counts and it's usually very minor
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post #54 of 135
In X264 the current thread allocation is in fact quite optimal (logical * 1.5), at least on AMD 15h CPUs.
It´s around 17% faster than the native thread count.
post #55 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Sure. For my everyday computing life, there's no difference between a 960 and a 980ti yet a 6600k over an 8320 is night and day. It's a question of what you do and how much you care about it - the main thing i'm against is people recommending hardware saying that it won't make a difference for anyone or that it's better because it's "more snappy" / whatever other bias they have. There's a clear trend of less evidence-based decision than average going around with FX users, particularly on otherwise higher end systems. Many of them take that stance because there's literally no way to refute it - and if you try, they'll just move the goalposts. Evidence is evidence, there is no opinion involved with numbers so i much prefer to use them.

For individual monitoring of per-thread load, that's actually pretty hard to do - especially with the scheduler from windows 8+. Battlefront AFAIK only scales decently from about 6 threads - decently, not excellently - though those threads will bounce around between cores a lot.
I answered a couple times. For most people on OCN, the CPU bound games. It's usually MMO/RTS with a few others sprinkled in that get to low FPS even on very powerful CPU's (and far lower fps on weaker cpu's)
The problem for me, and I'm not talking about you nor am I meaning just on this board, but on others I frequent and IRL, there is a never ending supply of people always ready and willing to sow discord and obfuscate the discussion with percentages, benchmarks, weasel words, and their own confirmation bias any time someone has the temerity to recommend using AMD hardware.

As I said, there's no argument that the IPC crown resides with intel. There's no argument that if you want to own the fastest, most powerful chip, that buying anything other than intel would be silly. There's no argument that for 99.999% of the computer users that aren't members of this board, AMD hardware performs more than adequately for any task the average user requires.

A case in point is /r/buildapc; intel and nvidia should fall on their knees and thank them for singlehandedly making the g3258/gtx 970 "budget combination" a thing, and I doubt that nvidia would have sold half the amount of gtx 960s were it not for the shills there.
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post #56 of 135
So when is ZEN expected to launch? As soon as possible?
post #57 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Skylake and Zen are still pretty far out (like we don't have good numbers for them at all) but it wouldn't surprise me for there to be a consumer level 6-core zen part. Supposed to be 40% higher IPC than excavator (so like 60% higher than piledriver? that's Haswell level)

5 months later, Skylake has been released for a month now, Zen won't be released for another 12 months (Servers), and not commonly available for 15 months (Desktops).

Interesting reading old posts that have been necro'd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

So when is ZEN expected to launch? As soon as possible?

Per AMD ... Late Q4 2016 for Zen server with Zen for desktop in Q1 2017.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-set-to-release-first-zen-based-microprocessors-in-late-2016-document/

http://www.itworld.com/article/2984199/hardware/amd-rumored-to-launch-zen-cpu-architecture-in-q4-2016.html

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20150910PD202.html

http://techreport.com/review/28228/amd-zen-chips-headed-to-desktops-servers-in-2016
Edited by 47 Knucklehead - 10/17/15 at 6:47am
post #58 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

5 months later, Skylake has been released for a month now, Zen won't be released for another 12 months (Servers), and not commonly available for 15 months (Desktops).

Interesting reading old posts that have been necro'd.
Per AMD ... Late Q4 2016 for Zen server with Zen for desktop in Q1 2017.

http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-set-to-release-first-zen-based-microprocessors-in-late-2016-document/

http://www.itworld.com/article/2984199/hardware/amd-rumored-to-launch-zen-cpu-architecture-in-q4-2016.html

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20150910PD202.html

http://techreport.com/review/28228/amd-zen-chips-headed-to-desktops-servers-in-2016

Thats very late.
Anyway,
I though they would do if faster (like Q2-3 in 2016). Based on this.
http://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/anton-shilov/amd-development-of-zen-processors-is-our-largest-rd-spending-now/ - June 5th, 2015
http://www.kitguru.net/components/graphic-cards/anton-shilov/amd-we-have-taped-out-our-first-finfet-products/ June 17th, 2015

So ZEN is not taped out.. which product are?
post #59 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Themisseble View Post

So ZEN is not taped out.. which product are?
SR-A0/Summit Ridge Revision A0 is taped out. They are shipping to test reference motherboards soon. So look out out for 17h family benchmark leaks.

The reason we aren't seeing Zen as soon as possible is 14nm FinFET is ridiculously expensive. So, AMD is doing a dual game;
1st -> Wait for 14nm FinFET to get substantially larger yields and be slightly cheaper.
2nd -> Sell off current stock of CPUs so they don't need to write it off.

Just to forward this out, yes Zen will be a disaster and is currently an ongoing tragedy.
Edited by Seronx - 10/17/15 at 2:20pm
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post #60 of 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by p4inkill3r View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyro999 View Post

Sure. For my everyday computing life, there's no difference between a 960 and a 980ti yet a 6600k over an 8320 is night and day. It's a question of what you do and how much you care about it - the main thing i'm against is people recommending hardware saying that it won't make a difference for anyone or that it's better because it's "more snappy" / whatever other bias they have. There's a clear trend of less evidence-based decision than average going around with FX users, particularly on otherwise higher end systems. Many of them take that stance because there's literally no way to refute it - and if you try, they'll just move the goalposts. Evidence is evidence, there is no opinion involved with numbers so i much prefer to use them.

For individual monitoring of per-thread load, that's actually pretty hard to do - especially with the scheduler from windows 8+. Battlefront AFAIK only scales decently from about 6 threads - decently, not excellently - though those threads will bounce around between cores a lot.
I answered a couple times. For most people on OCN, the CPU bound games. It's usually MMO/RTS with a few others sprinkled in that get to low FPS even on very powerful CPU's (and far lower fps on weaker cpu's)
The problem for me, and I'm not talking about you nor am I meaning just on this board, but on others I frequent and IRL, there is a never ending supply of people always ready and willing to sow discord and obfuscate the discussion with percentages, benchmarks, weasel words, and their own confirmation bias any time someone has the temerity to recommend using AMD hardware.

As I said, there's no argument that the IPC crown resides with intel. There's no argument that if you want to own the fastest, most powerful chip, that buying anything other than intel would be silly. There's no argument that for 99.999% of the computer users that aren't members of this board, AMD hardware performs more than adequately for any task the average user requires.

A case in point is /r/buildapc; intel and nvidia should fall on their knees and thank them for singlehandedly making the g3258/gtx 970 "budget combination" a thing, and I doubt that nvidia would have sold half the amount of gtx 960s were it not for the shills there.

In the nearly 3 years I've had the 8 core Vishera's there's only been a couple instances where I could actually see my i7 rigs have any advantage in games or applications I normally use.
IPC is important, but any advantage my i 7's have isn't reflected in any perceptible way shape or form for 99.9% of the things I've tried, and I've went well out of my way to find areas where people here say the Vishera's struggle . The value of Intel's ipc advantage as it applies to the average user in modern games or for daily use is wildly exaggerated.

The only significant advantage/compelling reason to use the I 7's over the FX in my eyes is power usage. That advantage is much smaller now than when the Vishera was released , the post batch 1429 FX 8xxx's ( e or not) Vishera's have made huge gains in that area.

If anyone has a suggestion for a gaming benchmark I can try that I can actually see a significant difference between my 4790K and Vishera - both locked at stock turbo speeds - 1920 x 1200 resolution 60HZ - PLEASE tell me about it.

Zen really wouldn't need to have a huge improvement in IPC over Vishera for me to be interested in it.
If it was more power efficient, had the latest instruction sets, eliminated the shared resources that can make it hard for programs to use 100% of the processing power available, maintained FX's overclockability, Improved IMC ( similar to the Thuban to Vishera jump would be ok ) and made available as an affordable 8 core SKU. Those alone would make it interesting to me.


Not a huge deal to me , because I don't typically use it, but there is a lot of room for improvement in AMD's turbo implementation, but I'm sure others would appreciate it.
Another thing I hope for is that it will be properly supported by motherboard manufacturers - with enthusiast boards available in everything from E-ATX to M-ATX.
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