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Just got my Cherry MX Board 6.0 - Page 8

post #71 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pente View Post

Can you please stop posting if you don't even understand what the basics of communication even works between keyboard and PC?

scans the keyboard matrix/input sorry, did you mean polling rate? Which on the other keyboards I linked already specifies 1000hz. As in 1000 times, per second. As in 1milli (one out of one thousand) second time. Any recent good gaming keyboard takes 0.25-0.45ms per scan, a good bit faster than what's actually being used since the USB HID class only supports polling rate of up to 1000 Hz.

What Cherry states as 20ms on average is the debounce time, which is bull**** as well since any good gaming keyboard operate at 2-5ms debounce. mx6 saves time here as the analog controller only needs to take the 0.8ms to register. It makes the mx6 faster, but then we're talking about 2ms vs 3.6ms (depending on keyboard). This is only if we're talking about keyboards using firmware that applies debounce before key activation. Several reputable brands has an implementation that sends a keydown and then applies debounce after it making it effectively as fast as the polling rate - 1ms so to say.

Wait a minute dude. Retracting my apology. I gotta take the time and explain again the scan rate on the keyboard controller again? No. I never said the polling rate on the keyboard had anything to do with the polling rate from the USB port on the PC.
Edited by OCmember - 2/2/16 at 6:35am
     
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post #72 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pente View Post

mx6 saves time here as the analog controller only needs to take the 0.8ms to register.

Hell, I should have even read more into it. So all it is just a custom controller that cuts down on extra controller processing delay.

WHOOPPEE DOO

I gotta remember to get a B720 one of these days.
post #73 of 93
Scan rate and polling rate aren't the same thing...

The scan rate, in short, is how often the keyboard's onboard controller checks the keyboard's matrix to see what is going on with the switches. The polling rate is how often the host PC gets data from the keyboard's controller on which keys are pressed. In between these two steps, the keyboard's controller must check to see which scan codes to send to the host PC, based on its firmware settings (or, in more advanced devices, firmware settings plus whatever scripts/macros it might be running at the time). In typical implementations, debouncing also occurs during this period. These are all different, separate potential sources of input lag.

Incidentally, 2ms debounce would be very, very aggressive on Cherry MX switches. Cherry spec calls for 5ms of debouncing time. The hotter you go on the debounce rate, the less wear it takes for your keyboard to develop chatter. Even with real Cherry MX switches, improper debouncing will get you chatter within a couple of years, as various low-quality keyboards demonstrated. The ideal here would be a debounce rate that the user can adjust as the keyboard ages, but this feature seems to have fallen out of fashion (and I don't know whether the keyboards that implemented it, such as certain Noppoo models, actually ever did so properly).
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post #74 of 93
Logitech romer-g (g910 or g410) is faster than the mx 6.0 and b720 :x

has anyone tried the NKey R3 or the steelseries apex m800 and compared to logitech romer g ?
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post #75 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhaine View Post

Logitech romer-g (g910 or g410) is faster than the mx 6.0 and b720 :x

has anyone tried the NKey R3 or the steelseries apex m800 and compared to logitech romer g ?

ehhhh i wouldn't say romer-g is faster than the b720. even if it was, it'd be negligible. optical switches wouldnt need to worry about debounce.

As foxwolf pointed out, there's more to keyboard input delay than compared to say mice. Not that much though.

I couldn't use the romer-g switches because i can't stand the tactile bump. The G910 with normal keycaps > G410 normal keycaps though. For typing feel imo.

The Apex M800 is a mystery though. It's also more expensive than the B720 for me at least.

The NKEY R3 at least has oscilloscope testing to back up it's claims to outside observers. However of course that was merely part of a marketing effort by Sky Digital. I sure as hell liked seeing that type of marketing, but in the end...it's marketing. It uses Kalih switches though, sadly no yellow switches. Uses a combination of interfaces. Requires the keyboard to be plugged in with ps/2 and usb at the same time.
post #76 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by uaokkkkkkkk View Post

ehhhh i wouldn't say romer-g is faster than the b720. even if it was, it'd be negligible. optical switches wouldnt need to worry about debounce.

As foxwolf pointed out, there's more to keyboard input delay than compared to say mice. Not that much though.

I couldn't use the romer-g switches because i can't stand the tactile bump. The G910 with normal keycaps > G410 normal keycaps though. For typing feel imo.

The Apex M800 is a mystery though. It's also more expensive than the B720 for me at least.

The NKEY R3 at least has oscilloscope testing to back up it's claims to outside observers. However of course that was merely part of a marketing effort by Sky Digital. I sure as hell liked seeing that type of marketing, but in the end...it's marketing. It uses Kalih switches though, sadly no yellow switches. Uses a combination of interfaces. Requires the keyboard to be plugged in with ps/2 and usb at the same time.

hi uaokkkkkkkk great to have you dig this up too, i can give you my experience with the 720/mx6.0/qpad mk85/corsair strafe rgb with silent mx red, these last 4 are pretty much equal (mx6.0 was with the "turbo settings"), and they lost to the g910 all the time.
And I tried all sort of "trick" to lower actuation (mk85 can work with 2 orings, mx6.0 work with only 1 orings, 720 cannot use orings).
So this is definitly marketing.
The R3 is very intriguing we need to test it at some point, maybe it can reach the romer-g or beat it ?
I asked steelseries to get the apex m800 for a review so I hope to have it soon. The size is a big no to me normally but the switch looks very nice, so i'll definitly compare them.
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post #77 of 93
smile.gif

They just need a linear version of the G910 and then I'd be on board. Welllllllll, I could do it myself, but I'd have to buy a good desoldering gun otherwise I'd go completely insane from the monotony of desoldering and resoldering each switch on the G910's pcb.

M800 is linear so it has that going for it.

Thing keeping me from the M800 and R3 is that "i want something different" feel I'm having.
post #78 of 93
it seems it's possible to get nkey from here : http://item2.gmarket.co.kr/English/detailview/item.aspx?goodscode=759529703

but kailh switchs, damn i heard it's not so good

i'll be waiting and maybe get it after testing m800
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post #79 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhaine View Post

it seems it's possible to get nkey from here : http://item2.gmarket.co.kr/English/detailview/item.aspx?goodscode=759529703

but kailh switchs, damn i heard it's not so good

i'll be waiting and maybe get it after testing m800

It was worse before because only the blue kalih version was available for overseas shipping. Thankfully they changed it to having multiple kalih flavors available. Kalih red version was $130 before overseas shipping iirc.

Hell why not here's some more oscilloscope stuff they did with another reviewer(page 4):

http://playwares.com/pcreview/47479912#
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxWolf1 View Post

Incidentally, 2ms debounce would be very, very aggressive on Cherry MX switches.
Here's the thing:

Old dumb debounce implementation:

Key is pressed -> Circuit state change -> Debounce is applied on the first change -> Bouncing happens -> Debounce ends -> Okay we're safe here let's send the keydown signal

What should've been used (and what people are using on keyboards with custom firmware)

Key is pressed -> Circuit state change -> Send keydown signal right away -> Debounce is applied (keydown is applied during this period) -> Bouncing happens -> Debounce ends

See the difference? The former has a forced debounce delay before keypress is registered. The latter has none. The latter still prevents key chatter all the same. You can set it to 6ms or whatever, it doesn't delay your keypresses. It's not mechanically possible to push and release a key in less than 6 milli seconds, if you use some recording program and tap a key you'll see the keydown state sets for a minimal of ~100ms.
Edited by Pente - 2/2/16 at 1:41am
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