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I7 5820k (Haswell-E) or I7 6700K (Skylake) - Page 18

post #171 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinholueiro View Post

I know the 6700k is enough, of course. It was my first choice, but the it costs the same of the 5820k, so the difference is only the mb price. Now the 6700k is enough, but the C2D also was back in the day over a C2Q. I know you understand...
That's true haha. To be honest I haven't even looked at z170 motherboards yet so I don't know how they compare price-wise to x99. I do know that x99 isn't cheap, but I could have sworn I read somewhere that the z170 stuff is even more expensive since it's so new.

If the prices were the same I would still go with my 5820k personally. This CPU is a little beast.
(well it's actually pretty big in terms of CPU die size lol)
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post #172 of 235
It's well established that currently, and likely for the next couple of years games will be GPU limited not CPU limited. So there's essentially no difference between these platforms in terms of gaming, except for the odd rarity that does use more CPU cores.

i5 vs i7 = Hyperthreading. Otherwise knows as 'fake cores', which are more complicated than that, but it's an efficiency measure to help offload multi-threaded workloads. Gaming currently makes little use of this hence the i5 being so good. i5 also allows for slightly more overclocking headroom than i7 in a like-for-like scenario. More MHz wins in games, but again it's GPU limited.

Down the road in a couple of years, things will turn more in favour of heavy lifting CPUs. We will see -E variants with their true multi-cores actually perform slightly better for a slightly slower clock in games. A lot depends upon handshaking between GPU and CPU though, other things could be a deciding factor.

It seems Z170 is a more efficient platform than X99. It allows for lower idle wattage and other power saving features that are newer than X99. Snazzy crap like phone control via bluetooth etc. They are a little cheaper than X99 at the moment too, but there are still irritating compromises. If we take the scenario of one GPU only, X99 seems to offer more native SATA III ports, but generally M.2 @ x2 Gen.2 (10Gb/s) speed rather than M.2 @ x4 Gen.3 (32Gb/s). The difference is not that much unless for sequential data transfer by the seems of it.
Quad channel RAM vs Dual channel is irrelevant for the most part.

The bottom line is X99 Haswell-E for video rendering / heavy multitasking / gaming whilst doing many other tasks / many Virtual Machines / 5930K or 5960X for 4x GPU
For anything else there is more choice is much less obvious, and they trade blows over a small area. Single threaded performance obviously goes the faster clocked system.

Even though X99 is older, I do quite fancy a 5820K, but I don't care about gaming performance at all, and will happily turn down res, drop frames, turn off eye candy. Video rendering is not something I do all of the time, but a hex-core would make a significant difference. My system is idle an awful lot, so I am trying to establish just how low I can get a 5820K system to go on idle consumption, and how does this compare to Sklyke 6700K. If the difference is under 15watts idle, I'll take the 5820K. I wouldn't overclock.
post #173 of 235
If they are at similar prices, get the 5820K, it's more fun and powerful. I wouldn't bother with the Quad Core i7 myself, I'd go for a K i5 instead - offers the same overclockability, and only the absence of Hyper-Threading.
post #174 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

If they are at similar prices, get the 5820K, it's more fun and powerful. I wouldn't bother with the Quad Core i7 myself, I'd go for a K i5 instead - offers the same overclockability, and only the absence of Hyper-Threading.

There is a distinct difference in each level if you do anything other than JUST game with nothing else running.
The following link compares i5 4590K, i7 4790K, i7-E 5820K and i7-E 5960X in a heavily multi-tasked environment. It's not the be all and end all, and folks could use other ways to mitigate the losses, but it's just a demonstration of the different number of cores and the effect of hyperthreading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GgDZKGA89I

The i5 chokes first. Unplayable game frame dropping (despite measures frame rates being OK) and dropped frames in a live recording stream.
The i7 is kept alive by hyper threading, but still has issues with stuttering in games whilst other tasks are going on.
The i7-E 6 Core HT gets a massive reduction in video render time (this is a common theme with Haswell-E over consumer i7), and game stuttering is considerably less, but not eliminated.
The i7-E 8 Core HT flagship has no issues, and renders fastest as well.

The take home here is that, whilst an i5 is perfectly fine for gaming and able to match an i7 for the most part (games are still GPU limited, and MHz limited), and does seem to offer more overclocking headroom than the i7, as soon as more heftier tasks are called upon simultaneously, it shows. The i7 has more wiggle room here.

I would recommend people get an i7 if they can afford it, as it just gives more freedom for multi application users. Simultaneous programs will run smoother, and the system will feel more responsive.
The real question is what we have here in this thread title: i7 4 Core HT -OR- i7-E 6/8 Core HT.
post #175 of 235
The architectural/platform differences between Haswell and Skylake results in, what, an ~8% IPC improvement?

I don't understand why anyone would cross-shop between the two until the CPU-bound performance differential exceeds 20% at typical respective overclocks (e.g. 4.4-4.5GHz 5820k vs. 4.7-4.8GHz 6700k).

Unless Broadwell-E is a bust, the IPC difference between X99 and Z170 would shrink to 4-5% within two quarters.

Also keep in mind that platform migration will result in discounted 8+-core Xeons once Broadwell-E and Skylake-E are available for enterprise.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 9/23/15 at 8:09am
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post #176 of 235
People keep misunderstanding real world IPC improvements. The gap between Haswell and Skylake is small, too small. To that end, an OCed 5820K will be faster than any Intel offering over the next few years. Core count matters more than IPC improvement, especially when running multiple workloads. By having spare cores to offload separate tasks to, the remaining cores can be used for the game engine. When you start shoving game engine and encoding tasks on the same core, that's when task scheduling starts causing issues. Having those processes on separate cores helps a lot. As to your 4.4GHz vs 4.7GHz argument. No that is completely incorrect. To be focusing on equivalent performance, you'd be needing something like 6.2GHz on the 6700K. Those extra two cores on the 5820K do a lot more than just "exist". They're used actively for background processes in Windows and also by h.264 encoding processes, i.e. streaming gameplay (for which Hardware GPU based encoding is much easier on the system as opposed to CPU encoding). Unlike gameplay engines of old yore DX11, h.264 utilises every single core you can throw at it. DX 12 also scales up to 6 cores, which conveniently includes the 5820K and 5930K. For the future being, the 5820K is a much better investment, even if you only plan on using a single GPU (12 more PCIe threads than the highest Skylake).
Edited by Desolutional - 9/23/15 at 12:03pm
post #177 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

People keep misunderstanding real world IPC improvements. The gap between Haswell and Skylake is small, too small. To that end, an OCed 5820K will be faster than any Intel offering over the next few years. Core count matters more than IPC improvement, especially when running multiple workloads. By having spare cores to offload separate tasks to, the remaining cores can be used for the game engine. When you start shoving game engine and encoding tasks on the same core, that's when task scheduling starts causing issues. Having those processes on separate cores helps a lot.

+1 for the 5820k

I have the 4790k before and now the 5820k honestly with 970 SLI OC 1550mhz both card @1080p in BF4 / GTA V / BF3 ( +140fps project )

the 5820k @stock 3.6ghz eat the 4790k @4.7ghz and after small OC to 4GHz loool no way i can compare them anymore

get the 5820k and don't look back both 6700k and 5820k need DDR4 and both cpus cost the same so its the board 200$ for z170 board vs 300$ for x99 with 8 ram slot ?
    
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post #178 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desolutional View Post

People keep misunderstanding real world IPC improvements. The gap between Haswell and Skylake is small, too small. To that end, an OCed 5820K will be faster than any Intel offering over the next few years. Core count matters more than IPC improvement, especially when running multiple workloads. By having spare cores to offload separate tasks to, the remaining cores can be used for the game engine. When you start shoving game engine and encoding tasks on the same core, that's when task scheduling starts causing issues. Having those processes on separate cores helps a lot. As to your 4.4GHz vs 4.7GHz argument. No that is completely incorrect. To be focusing on equivalent performance, you'd be needing something like 6.2GHz on the 6700K. Those extra two cores on the 5820K do a lot more than just "exist". They're used actively for background processes in Windows and also by h.264 encoding processes, i.e. streaming gameplay (for which Hardware GPU based encoding is much easier on the system as opposed to CPU encoding). Unlike gameplay engines of old yore DX11, h.264 utilises every single core you can throw at it. DX 12 also scales up to 6 cores, which conveniently includes the 5820K and 5930K. For the future being, the 5820K is a much better investment, even if you only plan on using a single GPU (12 more PCIe threads than the highest Skylake).

Bolded is a strawman but I still disagree with you generally.

I wasn't implying that a 20% IPC differential would result in equivalent performance; I'm saying that at a 20%+ IPC improvement would make the decision harder given the importance of single-threaded performance in real-world usage scenarios. At +20% IPC a 4C CPU will walk over an older 6C CPU in many lightly-threaded workloads.

Case in point. It's a crude approximation (since the 6600K has a 200MHz/5% frequency lead with full turbo), but every situation where the 6600K "wins" vs. the 5930K would have an even bigger lead with a more significant IPC differential. Some people care more about those situations than the heavily-threaded areas where the 5930K is dominant.

DX12 remains to be seen but the general consensus is that the reduction in CPU overhead will mostly be beneficial in CPU-bottlenecked situations which rarely happens nowadays.

In any case that is neither here nor there. With the current IPC differential, a ~4.45 5820K will noticeably outperform a ~4.65GHz 6700K in heavily-threaded situations and not be noticeably slower in lightly-threaded loads.
Edited by friend'scatdied - 9/23/15 at 1:44pm
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post #179 of 235
I know we are on a forum called "overclock.net" but I am more in the camp of wanting to compare without overclocking anything, or only just a little. Longevity, less stress, less heat, less watts is where I am at as I don't change my system like my socks, and tend to keep the same rig for 7 years or as long as possible until it becomes irritatingly slow and alternatives are considerably better.

So it's Turbo 3.6 GHz vs Turbo 4.2 GHz for single threaded tasks. With the 4 cores and hyper-threading, as long as the multiple task load isn't too heavy, the Skylake or even Haswell refresh will outperform the Haswell Extreme 5820K. Wattage consumption will be lower to boot. The 5820 will probably require less cooling though because of the TIM.
This is why any testing involving Lightroom favours the Skylake than Haswell-E because it is single threaded, even if there are some mundane windows tasks going on the background or not.
The difference is ~1/6th (17%) faster, how much this will actually feel is another question. I doubt anyone would notice, both will feel snappy.

As soon as a user wants to do some CAD, 3D model rendering, some video rendering, compressing/decompressing with certain archiving softwares, anything involving multiple threads and making use of them simultaneously, the MHz difference becomes unimportant vs the extra 2 (or 4) real cores and paired threads.

6700K (stock) vs 5820K (stock) nice link by the way @ friend'scatdied
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1543?vs=1320
Funnily enough synthetic benchmarks, the Skylake does better in, but I would expect less of a difference in real world tests.

I think I may sway towards the efficiency side of things, and go for a less well built/assembled Skylake and save myself a few pounds for a takeaway or something in the motherboard price disparity.
I just don't do enough heavy usage to make it worth it, and my system is a do-all, so will be idle for the vast majority of it's life.
post #180 of 235
Quote:
Originally Posted by sinholueiro View Post

I know the 6700k is enough, of course. It was my first choice, but the it costs the same of the 5820k, so the difference is only the mb price. Now the 6700k is enough, but the C2D also was back in the day over a C2Q. I know you understand...

I laid out two builds, one with a z170, one with an x99.

The x99/5820k is only $19.09 more expensive than the z170/6700k

Unless you're outside of the USA, you should essentially consider them the same price.

z170 - 6700k + Asus z170 deluxe
x99 - 5820k + Asus x99 Sabertooth
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