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post #891 of 1498
I don't even think that kind of thing should be called base cpi because of the way the buffering works

imo it should just be whatever the sensor happens to be buffering a single pixel at, because the entire picture of how this works is kind of arbitrary
post #892 of 1498
why not call it that? it may not correspond exactly to what the sensor initially calculates, but it is the relevant physical quantity that affects the final sensitivity.

plus what the sensor initially calculates, which i guess is what you thought i meant by "base cpi", is just (some factor) * ("physical pixel density * lens magnification")
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post #893 of 1498
It's all buffered, so there's not really a single physical quality that affects the final sensitivity. It's 100% up to the sensor how much subpixel movement to buffer before outputting a pixel of movement. Depending on how the given correlation logic calculates subpixel movements, there might not even be a "default" buffer size, aside from what's reasonable in terms of sensitivity and jitter.

What the sensor initially calculates is actually also affected by sensor resolution. Higher resolution in same space = larger (more precise) initial subpixel values.

Now, there IS a standard of "mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame", but that goes to the wind when you have a dynamic framerate, and again, it has nothing to do with what CPI values are good. There's also "actual sensor image density on mousepad", but it still doesn't directly affect what CPI value is "optimal" or "default".

Calling anything "base CPI" is extremely misleading to people who don't have the time or patience to go so far into things.
Edited by wareya - 10/20/15 at 6:36pm
post #894 of 1498
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

is the 1000 setting from 4* 250 or from 2* 500?

With the way it feels... it really wouldn't surprise me it's 250 and not 500.

It feels as if there's some strange deadzoning at 500 dpi and at 1000 dpi it jumps around as if someone upped my Windows Sens above 6 rolleyes.gif

Initially it worked, but when u end up against better opponents with better movement (usually more erratic), it's a pain in the butt to move with them compared to: Sensei Raw/Xai/G303/DA 3.0G and 3.5G (without Synapse), which work really well in this aspect.

3310's have this a tiny wee bit, but quite manageable.
Edited by CorruptBE - 10/20/15 at 6:49pm
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post #895 of 1498
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareya View Post

It's all buffered, so there's not really a single physical quality that affects the final sensitivity. It's 100% up to the sensor how much subpixel movement to buffer before outputting a pixel of movement. Depending on how the given correlation logic calculates subpixel movements, there might not even be a "default" buffer size, aside from what's reasonable in terms of sensitivity and jitter.

when you're moving at a speed where consecutive images are shifted by e.g. 5 pixels, is the physical size of those 5 pixels (projected on the mousepad) not relevant?

if i understand you correctly, what you're saying/thinking is more relevant for this type of sensor:
http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/2/20/RepRapServo_1_0-cyons1001_8.pdf
where framerates are high enough that consecutive images are only displaced by subpixels
Quote:
Now, there IS a standard of "mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame", but that goes to the wind when you have a dynamic framerate,
"mouse moves one sensor pixel in one frame" corresponds to a speed. not sure how that's relevant here. it should be clear that, ignoring errors, framerate does not affect cpi/sensitivity.
Quote:
and again, it has nothing to do with what CPI values are good. There's also "actual sensor image density on mousepad", but it still doesn't directly affect what CPI value is "optimal" or "default".
i'm not saying that (what i call) base cpi is the best cpi to use or anything. though it could be...
Quote:
Calling anything "base CPI" is extremely misleading to people who don't have the time or patience to go so far into things.
well blame skylit tongue.gif
http://www.overclock.net/t/1514852/razer-deathadder-chroma-10000dpi-what-sensor/300_100#post_23597669
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post #896 of 1498
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

when you're moving at a speed where consecutive images are shifted by e.g. 5 pixels, is the physical size of those 5 pixels (projected on the mousepad) not relevant?

if i understand you correctly, what you're saying/thinking is more relevant for this type of sensor:
http://reprap.org/mediawiki/images/2/20/RepRapServo_1_0-cyons1001_8.pdf
where framerates are high enough that consecutive images are only displaced by subpixels
Thing is, you always get subpixel movements because you need to know that you moved 2.215 pixels instead of 2.000 pixels. Otherwise smooth high speed motions would be locked at integer pixels per sensor poll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by qsxcv View Post

i'm not saying that (what i call) base cpi is the best cpi to use or anything. though it could be...
Maybe if variance/acceleration didn't exist it could be, but that should eliminate any theoretical advantages of mapping dpi to one physical sensor raster's size on the mousepad.
this post makes no sense....
post #897 of 1498
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareya View Post

Thing is, you always get subpixel movements because you need to know that you moved 2.215 pixels instead of 2.000 pixels. Otherwise smooth high speed motions would be locked at integer pixels per sensor poll.
exactly, so the sensor first shifts by 2 pixels in this case, which is discrete
and then it needs to figure out how to put a number onto the 0.215px shift
and then it needs to combine these two numbers to get the total shift.

so the final number for the total shift corresponds to (2pixels) * (some multiplier, which you speculate to be very high) + (whatever number it put onto the 0.215 shift)

and then you scale down from there
Quote:
Originally Posted by wareya View Post

this post makes no sense....
yea he has a weird way of talking sometimes
Edited by qsxcv - 10/20/15 at 7:01pm
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post #898 of 1498
More like (2px + fraction) * (very high multiplier that depends on exposure, number of sensor rasters, surface flaws, etc)

And if it were 2.645 it would be (3px - fraction) * (etc)

What magnitude or scale it has isn't directly connected to the sensor density on the mousepad. I think it has an effect but it doesn't trigger any red flags that make me want to check how it aught to work since there are other independent variables that directly affect it.
post #899 of 1498
well dpi is a physical measurement. you cant pull out a unit of inches out of pure numbers...
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post #900 of 1498
Of course, but there's several different places where quantization happens and you can't really say any of them are important except for pixels/frame (because it relates to variance/acceleration) and the number of pixels moved that the sensor itself outputs after all is done.

Skylake's post seems to be about interpolating the sensor array or correlation array, but that's all stuff that exists before that data is adapted to the subpixel movement buffer, which is where the eventual DPI value comes from...

Perhaps in older sensors the correlation logic was fixed in place to treat single sensor pixel distance movements per frame as single count outputs per sensor poll, but there's no way that for example the 3310 could have accurate 50 or 100 dpi steps if it still had a fixed buffer like that. This is what people mean when they say "every DPI step is native".
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