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*Official* Intel DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread - Page 264

post #2631 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

This is the case for tRRD, but I don't believe tWTR or tRTP have a lower limit of 4..

Hello

Both tWTR and tRTP are limited by the burst length. A setting less than 4 will be valid only if the board is applying the value as an offset instead of an absolute.
post #2632 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle1721 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
quote name="superkyle1721" url="/t/1569364/official-skylake-haswell-e-broadwell-e-24-7-ddr4-memory-stability-thread/2500#post_25435924"]Superkyle1721---6700K @4.841/4.841 (BCLK 103 Multi 47/47)---3845Mhz -C14-15-15-30-2T----1.5V---SA 1.225V---1.2VCCIO---Gsat 1-hour
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


[
Misc. 3rd timings were too tight and caused a few errors. Set 3rds to auto and was able to pass without issues. Will revisit 3rds later.


Thats odd but I was on my phone at the time. This should work.

[/quote]

okay - pic works.. so I see a few things that may lead to issues either with stability or performance... and certainly are rusulting in a value being subbed which we have no idea what value is used:

1) tREFI is at the abs limit... this required all signals to persist for the longest time permissable. Generally not good, and may compromise other timings forcing them to be loosened.
2) tRFC is very low for that frequency.. same issue as above. 328 oor higher is probably optimal for bench quick with stability
3) Twcl IS WAAAY below CAS. are the settings shown actually stable?
4) FAW is set below 4x tRRD - this is incorrect and a value will be subbed. No idea what value is subbed and can change withg temp or drift as parts age

Clock period in bios should be Auto or 13

I mean that's just a few things I noticed - others here may see things different.

I guess, the point of using values that are not causing timing errors and correction in training is so you KNW what values are being used. redface.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Hello

Anyone running memory higher than 3200MHz on either Haswell-E or Broadwell-E need to do so with their eyes open. At these speeds OC Socket settings are being manipulated behind the scenes to levels that I personally am not comfortable with for 24/7. I understand how this may not be evident when the available user settings do not give a direct indication of what and to how high of a level voltages are being applied.

rut-oh. my cpu is being juiced in a clandestine manner - really?
Edited by Jpmboy - 8/26/16 at 12:18pm
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post #2633 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post

I've never been able to get RTLs below 4 to boot without sacrificing something else that makes the reduction pointless, but going from 8 to 4 or 6 is often possible at lower memory speeds, especially if not pushing the uncore too far.
VCCSA, VCCIO, and on Gigabyte boards with the OC socket enabled, pretty much all of the VLs. VDIMM can also help, in some cases.
At the frequency I run my memory and uncore at, my board defaults to IOLs of 8 on all channels. I can run them at 4 (with a corresponding reduction of RTLs from 49 to 45) and pass any stress test I care to run, with a small bump to VCCSA. This is a pretty solid reduction in latency, and probably one of the largest changes in memory performance from adjusting a single timing value.

At higher frequencies or with different BCLK straps, significant IOL/RTL adjustments get much harder to stabilize.
tWCL should be adjust first, then try reducing IOLs manually. Often it's not possible, but with some configurations it certainly is.
This is the case for tRRD, but I don't believe tWTR or tRTP have a lower limit of 4.

I still have to re-test the effect of tWTR (which I have set to 2) below 4, but tRTP most definitely increased performance and vDIMM requirements on my setup when I changed it from 4 to 3.
I was never able to run IOLs at 1 on my SOC Champion with any firmware, and if anything the newer F22h and beyond (using F22n at the moment) have made running IOLs below default easier for my 5820Ks.

I've had no problems with IOL's @ 1 till the F22 bios and on. lowest i can get IOL's to now is 8, But RTL's are much tighter.
F22m





Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Hello

Anyone running memory higher than 3200MHz on either Haswell-E or Broadwell-E need to do so with their eyes open. At these speeds OC Socket settings are being manipulated behind the scenes to levels that I personally am not comfortable with for 24/7. I understand how this may not be evident when the available user settings do not give a direct indication of what and to how high of a level voltages are being applied.

Is this is directed at asus boards? SOC champion we have full control with my setting above.
Edited by lilchronic - 8/26/16 at 1:02pm
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post #2634 of 6333
That's why DDR4-3200 is a nice operating point for configs up to 32GB. With good DIMMs, you can bring timings down to chipset limits, without voltages needing excessive elevation.
post #2635 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilchronic View Post

This is directed at asus boards? SOC champion we have full control with my setting above.

Hello

Actually you don't. But then it doesn't seem you understand what the limited OC Socket settings available to you really do so I can understand the confusion.
post #2636 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Hello

Actually you don't. But then it doesn't seem you understand what the limited OC Socket settings available to you really do so I can understand the confusion.

Well maybe you could elaborate on that. and your right i have no idea what they are really doing i just know that what setting help me overclock cache and what settings help me get higher memory frequency.


So please we are all dying to know, could you explain or point us in the right direction on what's really going on? You seem to be very educated in this feild. what kind of schooling would i need to further understand? rolleyes.gif
Edited by lilchronic - 8/26/16 at 12:47pm
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post #2637 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpmboy View Post

Thats odd but I was on my phone at the time. This should work.


okay - pic works.. so I see a few things that may lead to issues either with stability or performance... and certainly are rusulting in a value being subbed which we have no idea what value is used:

1) tREFI is at the abs limit... this required all signals to persist for the longest time permissable. Generally not good, and may compromise other timings forcing them to be loosened.
2) tRFC is very low for that frequency.. same issue as above. 328 oor higher is probably optimal for bench quick with stability
3) Twcl IS WAAAY below CAS. are the settings shown actually stable?
4) FAW is set below 4x tRRD - this is incorrect and a value will be subbed. No idea what value is subbed and can change withg temp or drift as parts age

Clock period in bios should be Auto or 13

I mean that's just a few things I noticed - others here may see things different.
[/quote]
Thank you very much for taking a look! Yes these settings have been used for a little over a week and stressed in all sorts of manners including gsat. No errors from that or memtest86+.
1) I have heard mixed stories about tREFI. On one stance if you have no issues with stability you should max it out. One the other I have heard the maximus hero viii actually sets these values very well and should always be left on auto. Taking what you said into account I think I will move that value back to auto and see what I can do as far as further adjusting terciary timings.
2) If I am not having an issue using the current timings should this value still be adjusted?
3) When I was asking questions on the ram addict club forum the guys there told me that I should always set to a value of 9 despite CAS. Them knowing much more than me I listened haha. Is this a problem ? I only asked bc it was more than ones opinion in the thread to adjust this to 9 despite CAS
4) I know the value of 16 is well below 4*(tRRD)=24. Im guessing 24 is being applied there.. Triyingto reduce tRRD further resulted in code 3E.
post #2638 of 6333
So is it better to run the memory at 3200???

By the way, it is harder to reach 3200 100:100 tan 3400 100:100!!!

rolleyes.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by stargate125645 View Post

I haven't gotten the 3rd timing tested yet. I had to stop for the night after making sure a higher VCCSA didn't allow me to do even 14 on the second timing. I'll get there tonight hopefully.
I concur with this statement. Furthermore, as GSAT is a set time, you will have stress testing done much quicker.

With directions from KedarWolf, which I can find for you (@vmanuelgm) if you're interested, you can get Puppy Linux running on a USB stick and GSAT going in less than half an hour without much effort. It is really a slick process.

Edit:
This would be the vagueness I mentioned earlier requiring further posting for clarification. frown.gif I'm sure there's excellent guidance intended, but not enough information is supplied for someone who actually wants to learn.

Could you please tell me how to???

Thanks in advance!!!
Edited by vmanuelgm - 8/26/16 at 2:17pm
post #2639 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praz View Post

Both tWTR and tRTP are limited by the burst length. A setting less than 4 will be valid only if the board is applying the value as an offset instead of an absolute.

I just did a bunch of tests with tWTR and tRTP, together and in isolation. I was figuring that since I had generally been adjusting tRAS (and thus tRC) along with tRTP that this might be the source of the difference I had seen earlier and not tRTP or tWTR themselves.

However, this does not appear to be the case; I am consistently getting slightly better performance in WinRAR with tRTP of 3 vs. 4, all other things being equal, as far as I am able to divine. Additionally, setting tRTP below 3 results in a failure to POST, while 3 vs. 4 needs about 20mV more vDIMM for stability. So, it's clearly doing something. Perhaps it's an offset like you say, but I can't find anything that reads memory timings that's indicating this.

tWTR is much less clear. 2 vs. 4 does seem to result in a performance increase, but it's a smaller impact than tRTP (about 5 KiB/s on a test that scores near ~22300), getting close to margin of error, even after averaging many tests in very clean environments with multiple reboots (cold and warm) to account for any possible training variance. I think I'm going to leave it on 2 because the test results are leaning that way and I've already done significant stability testing with that setting.

Is it possible for timings that don't stick to be influencing training routines in some way?
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post #2640 of 6333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja@ASUS View Post

That's why DDR4-3200 is a nice operating point for configs up to 32GB. With good DIMMs, you can bring timings down to chipset limits, without voltages needing excessive elevation.
oh well, I'm waaay off the Reservation at this point, no sense in turning back... guess I have an on-going robustness test of sorts
The song Suicide Blonde comes to mind. redface.gif
64GB

Quote:
Originally Posted by superkyle1721 View Post

okay - pic works.. so I see a few things that may lead to issues either with stability or performance... and certainly are rusulting in a value being subbed which we have no idea what value is used:

1) tREFI is at the abs limit... this required all signals to persist for the longest time permissable. Generally not good, and may compromise other timings forcing them to be loosened.
2) tRFC is very low for that frequency.. same issue as above. 328 oor higher is probably optimal for bench quick with stability
3) Twcl IS WAAAY below CAS. are the settings shown actually stable?
4) FAW is set below 4x tRRD - this is incorrect and a value will be subbed. No idea what value is subbed and can change withg temp or drift as parts age

Clock period in bios should be Auto or 13

I mean that's just a few things I noticed - others here may see things different.
Thank you very much for taking a look! Yes these settings have been used for a little over a week and stressed in all sorts of manners including gsat. No errors from that or memtest86+.
1) I have heard mixed stories about tREFI. On one stance if you have no issues with stability you should max it out. One the other I have heard the maximus hero viii actually sets these values very well and should always be left on auto. Taking what you said into account I think I will move that value back to auto and see what I can do as far as further adjusting terciary timings.
2) If I am not having an issue using the current timings should this value still be adjusted?
3) When I was asking questions on the ram addict club forum the guys there told me that I should always set to a value of 9 despite CAS. Them knowing much more than me I listened haha. Is this a problem ? I only asked bc it was more than ones opinion in the thread to adjust this to 9 despite CAS
4) I know the value of 16 is well below 4*(tRRD)=24. Im guessing 24 is being applied there.. Triyingto reduce tRRD further resulted in code 3E.[/quote]

1) Try 2x what the board sets on auto.. so far this has been fine with a continuous ram disk (and days of up time) and overnight sleep (suspend to ram) cycles. But there's always an inherent risk.
2) does setting it that low actually improve the performance? If yes, then stand pat.
3) remember, the guys in the ram addict club are fairly extreme in their uses and voltages (which is fine). I'm running 9 with cas 13 also, but got there differently. wink.gif
4) No idea what value the bios/board/mc is applying to the timing error. By setting it to 4x tRRD you know what value is being used. If you can lower it from there and gain performance and stability/reliability - the board may be running an offset as Praz and Raja have suggested.
These two guys know this sheet like you (we) know your day job... I tend to listen to them, and then wander off the margins at my own risk. wink.gif
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GSkill 3200c14 TZs 8x8GB @ 3400c13 Intel 750 NVMe 400GB 2x Plextor SSD 256 Raid 0 (Win 7) Samsung NVMe 950 Pro M.2 
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Plextor 810 2x XSPC RX360 Koolance 380i D5 
CoolingOSOSOS
Aquaero 6 Windows 10 x64  Windows 7 Pro Linux Mint 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Seiki 50" 4K monitor (720P-2160i) 240-30Hz Das Keyboard Model S Pro Corsair AX1200 Case Labs SM8 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate Ears TF10 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
8700K ASUS Maximus X Apex GTX 1080 2x8 GB G.Skill 4400c19 
Hard DriveCoolingOSCase
Samsung 960 Pro 360Rad + Chiller Win 10 HWBOT OBT 
CPUCPUMotherboardGraphics
7740X 7980XE ASUS Rampage Vi Apex 2x Nvidia Titan Xp SLi 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill 3600c15 2x8GB kits Intel 900p WD Raptor 1T Plextor SSDs Raid 0 
Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
Plextor DVD/BR R/W (very) Custom Water Windows 10 Pro Windows 7 Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
ASUS 144Hz Ducky Corsair 1500i Microcool Benchetto 101 
MouseAudio
Steelseries Rival Ultimate ears TF10s (IEMs) 
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