Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde I disagree with pretty much everything you say so it was easiest to keep track so I got everything.
I showed you in the two lines after with a chart and video, Guru 3d have recently been caught out achieving Firestrike exteme scores in a review on a 980ti that no one else could replicate at the same clocks. Hilberts response was to perma ban the guy who questioned it. They have also posted a CPUz screenshot for a new AMD hex core as 'news' that was started in the OMPT on OCN, gotta get those clicks in. I haven't really fully trusted them since TBH
http://www.overclock.net/a/a-troubling-trendWhen you run it in low mode most of the top CLC's will perform about well as an air cooler with its fans on max, despite the fact they are running the same speed with more similar noise levels. If you want the extra performance you have to turn the fans up. You could do the same if you bought some faster fans for you air cooler and still come in under the price of a CLC. But my point continue to be that you can get similar performance from an air cooler as a CLC if you use the same fans on the cooler, and almost the same performance at stock as shown by reviews that give fair reviews on an open bench while being much quieter, therefore measure the cooler intake temperature, not the room ambient
I really dont have time to look up all those custom kits, but after a quick look at the best performing one on that chart I can see its using a basic pump, its got a 240mm radiator and its using 1650rpm 120mm fans that arent going to push as much air as the 2000rpm+ 140mm the CLC's are using. CLC's are not the same as custom kits, not even close, aluminium is not as good at dispersing heat as copper, that is why the CLC's all use high FPI aluminium rads and high pressure high RPM fans. See how the swiftech H220/240x outperforms or matches CLC's with slower fans while being quieter? Because it has a good pump and a copper radiator.
[/B]CLC's are built to work their magic at the highest revs so that they can top the review graphs and people who dont really look into things will look and see them at the top. Honestly the idea that they are equivalent in loudness is just not true at max revs. It may sometimes be closer to true on the quiet profile but in that case you are not getting the performance you paid the dollar for.[/B]
Most people are sold on Noctuas products just being the best, much like CLC's. The truth is always more complicated then the general consensus of opinion. When a cooler is within 2-3 c it's within the margin of error for a good mount to an average one. Thats why the very best reviews do an average of several mounts for their testing. Cryorig R1 Ultimate is about even with the NHD15, you could argue that the Phanteks is slightly behind but its a matter of 1-3 c max. Quite a few other air coolers are close. They all have very similar designs. If you want to say the NHD15 is king sure, thats fine, but if it is its a matter of 1c max.If the difference between in case temps and room is 3-4 C, which is pretty normal when you have an idling GPU and HDD's , and then you add in the fact that the test cases have very bad airflow the difference is only going to go up and up as a test continues and hot air builds up. Of course having the CLC as an intake is gong to cause a small rise in inside case temps, as you say it can be dealt with by adding more or stronger fans. The fact is this still gives the CLC an advantage over air coolers in reviews that dont take airflow into account.
You really cannot compare a custom loop to a CLC at all. It's true that the high FPI rad will benefit more from industrial fans then the air coolers which are designed for quiet, the opposite is also true. Air coolers perform better at lower RPMs because they are designed for quieter use. That is not to say that there is no benefit to using high RPM fans. As you can see from the Silver Arrow when properly ventilated it beats the Phanteks PHTC14PE by 8 C in the review I posted earlier. Now add those 2500 RPM fans to an NHD15 and take say 8c off of its result. You have something that outperforms most CLC's or at least matches them.Again you cant compare a CLC to a custom loop, but sure you could get more of an advantage by strapping on Delts to a CLC the high FPI rad would benefit more then the silence optimized tower. However do people really try to set overclocking records on CLC's? There wouldnt be a point for average use, or even above average if you had to be in the same room.A pair of 1200 low RPM LED bling fans as intakes will not bring in enough air for a good air cooler at higher overclocks 70-80CFM is needed at least. Stock 1200RPM 120mm I'd besurprised if they managed to drag half that through the front mesh and filter. It's not a very good set up for airflow. And they dont even state whether they are running at 12v or 5V or PWM who knows?I dont recommend Noctua fans, theyre way overpriced for what they do, there are similar and better performing fans for cheaper. They are quiet though that's why people pay for them, that and Linus bigging them up.Air coolers have come a long way from pancake coolers in 12 years, theyre hardly the same old anymore In the last 6 or so years maybe the design has gotten a bit stale .However, If I'd bought an NHD14 in 2009 I could still be rocking it today and doing OK. I dont think your pump will last that long to be fair. Which is fine if you dont care, but its just another point of failure, a designed in obsolesense they make those CLC's filthy cheap and sell them at huge a premium that just doesnt sit right with me for what you actually get in reality.Corsair H60 performs the same as a dual tower? It doesnt even on the sources you have linked so far. I'm not trying to make anything appear, I'm showing my thought processes and reasonings. Your not buying what I'm showing you, which is fine. I'm not buying what youre selling either.
Interesting, It shows an NHD14 about 5c behind a H105 on a 4930k at 1.4 volts on an open bench, the best air coolers out today are a few degrees ahead of the NHD14, still using silence optimized fansI think that when you test on an open bench, things are much closer then some of the reviews would have us believe. The IHS becomes more of a heat bottleneck when you take bad airflow out of the equation. See the Tweaktown reviews as well very close all round compared to some of the crazy differences places get from in case tests. I think VSG/Gegegg actually likes CLC's I think he pretty much just loves testing anything cooler related
H220 had some problems yep.
Arctic F12's quite nice, pretty quiet, very cheap. I can also get Thermalright TY series here for 10 euros, as good as Noctuas IMO, almost the same design infact. You dont need to spend silly money on fans to get the same performance if you know what youre looking for.
The sound of air pushing through a very restrictive rad at the front or top of your case plus a pump at the same RPM cannot be the same noise vs the sound of two silence optimized fans inside the case. Logic dictates.
I also dont know how I'm flip flopping? I have remained constant in what Im saying AFAIK
Copper rads, better pumps. You cannot compare copper to aluminium you cannot say that custom loops are like CLC's. The review you showed has the lowest end custom loop kits with much slower, smaller fans and smaller rads and not the best pumps. They are not very far off despite this. Why?
Voltage is only one part of the equation as far as heat is concerned, it's power that creates heat. Skylake TDP is 95 watt, 4790k is 88 Watts, you can go back to Core 2 Quads and it was still around the same for Quad cores. 65 watt to 95 watts has been about the range for years. If you want to talk about thermal dissipation over a smaller die, that affects every type of cooler because it all has to come through the IHS then the block/base
I have to be honest I dont watch or trust any of the big Youtubers, all of their money comes from advertising and I simply do not trust their reviews from my limited experience of them. My first and pretty much only experience I had of Tek Syndicate was the review they did stating the FX 8350 was as good as a 3570k in GPU limited situations. So is a Sandy I3 Not to mention I've seen a few people around sitting on overclocked 5960x's with NH-D15's have a Google, or take his word for it. The only OC3d video I remember watching the guy reviewed the MSI 390X and was gushing about how it wasnt a rebrand at all the whole time and how great the PCB was and what an upgrade it was. Linus, well his GPU limited RAM speed testing review was the one that did it for me, they just look at things to simply and state that as the absolute truth. I dont trust them for my knowledge. That's why I trust individuals who do their own testing over site reviews. Or at least reviews where I can see that the methodology makes things fair and doesnt just have a talking head and a load of graphs/numbers with little to no context.
However I will say it. If you strap some Deltas to a 280mm high FPI ally rad it will perform better then a dual tower because it has more surface area to dissipate heat. The thing is at that point if you are overclocking to those extremes you would have thought about buying 480mm plus of good copper radiator instead, because that isnt going to be 24/7 overclocking on a single aluminium rad. You can increase the performance of an air cooler to very close to the best CLC's by adding faster fans. CLC's are not better because they include water. The main thing that's better is the increased airflow from the fans.
CLC goes Block>Water>Aluminium
Tower goes Block/Copper heat pipe>Aluminium
Water is not magical, it doesn't dissipate the heat, it moves it to the radiator which then dissipates the heat through the fans. This is why you see similar performance in fair tests. Air is a no contest when youre talking copper rads and pumps that push large amounts of water. Like a proper loop has.
I dont believe a CLC will not allow you to overclock any more then an air heatsink all things being equal on a quad core CPU. As I said hex core I think
its the same from what little I've seen, 8 core I dont know yet, but if so youre talking screaming fan time, beacuse if the CLC can do it on low then the aircooler definitely can at stock.
We had more of a discussion now, it's much better then throwing around terms like 'retarded' and 'garbage' I feel.
Yes, but replying in that manner makes it difficult for the next person to reply, since in the following reply the quote doesn't apply.
Okay, but it seems the sources you use to qualify as factual and the sources I use differ. I use mainstream sources, where yours are pretty iffy. They also have results that are extremely different than the mainstream sources, which is if I was you I would take them with a grain of salt. But it seems you have your mind set, because of these questionable sources, so trying to enlighten you won't seem to work.
Sorry I'm not going to discredit Guru3D because of childish drama. And I'm not getting involved in a situation where people willingly created fake information, just so a tech news outlet picks it up. Makes both parties wrong in that sense, but definitely doesn't invalidate the trustworthiness of a source that is credible 99.9% of the time.
I already showed you numerous sources that disproves these claims of yours, even with the fans on the lowest settings the H110i GT still outperforms a D15. With the fans on the lowest settings they run at under 1500 rpm (which is what the D15 runs at). So you get a quieter setup than an Air Cooler and still better performance. Did you not even bother to look at the OC3D graph I posted that shows this? How can you continually repeat the same misinformation even after I showed you graphs that proves this. Stop trying to create your perfect idea of what a proper test setup is. Seems like you are specifically trying to create scenarios in which an Air Cooler actually has a chance. Wherein, at that point, why even test at all? You are trying to create favorable results for an Air Cooler already knowing that they will perform worse. But yet in your mind, you need to have this ideal scenario in which an Air Cooler magically performs on the same level as an AIO Cooler. Seems like a pretty skewed mindset.
Even with the better pumps and copper radiators, it still gets outperformed by an AIO Cooler, even in quiet mode, with the fans lower than the 1650 rpm fans. The Swiftech H220X is overhyped, it barely performs better than an H105 (but you keep on making claims that copper radiators make so much difference, and therefore Air Cooling is better or on par with Water Cooling with Aluminum Radiators):
And the H105 is not even on the same level as the H110i GT or H100i GTX.
It is true, you are pushing air either through a radiator or through layered heat fins. They will end up producing similar noise levels regardless because air resistance is pretty close to equal. While you might not get as much performance, they have numerous modes, like Balanced mode which gives you a nice balance between performance and loudness. Which as you can see from the OC3D review, still performs pretty well.
"At the lower and more bearable RPMs engendered by the "Balanced" mode the H110i GT still put in a sterling performance bettering all other units at the “Balanced” level and even beating some AIOs at their full RPM setting. The most surprising set of results though was the figures we achieved with "Quiet" mode enabled. at this level the fans are audible, but only just by the merest whisper, even then the H110i GT is still way up the charts"
I showed you a review where the Cryorig R1 is worse than the dated H100i by about 6C. Even a D15 was closer to an H100i than 6C. So I'm not going to agree that the Cryorig R1 Ultimate is on par with a D15.
Most cases are already designed to be used with an Air Cooler, and the airflow inside of these cases is more than acceptable. It's only recently you started seeing case companies employ dual 120mm or dual 140mm fan positioning in the top of the case to support an AIO Cooler. Most cases come stock loaded with decent fans. While they aren't as good as aftermarket fans, they are more than acceptable for an Air Cooler.
All you have to do is put on 2500rpm fans on a CLC and you will leave that D15 with 2500 rpm fans in the dust. As shown numerous times already, with fan speeds even running at lower speeds on the AIO than on the Air Cooler, the Air Cooler still loses to an AIO Cooler. This will remain the same if you increase the fan speeds obviously. Meaning if the fan speeds are normalized, clearly the Air Cooler will still lose. Especially if you take into the account the fact that the Air Cooler loses to the AIO Cooler with the AIO Cooler's fans at lower RPMs than the Air Cooler. You even claimed that Air Coolers perform better with lower speed fans, so obviously they wont scale as well with higher speed fans compared to an AIO Cooler.
While you might say you cannot compare a CLC to a custom loop, you can say they can offer pretty similar performance at this point currently. The only difference is when you add more radiators with a custom loop, you can begin to add slower RPM fans while achieving the same performance as single radiator setups with higher RPM fans. Meaning you are getting good performance, but at quieter levels. Just look at my setup, even with my Deltas fans on 50%, I still achieve temperatures in the 55C range. This is with the dated original H100, with the pump on max setting. These are performance numbers you would expect from a custom loop. And for me, I made this setup to do overclocking records for myself, while I don't go on HWBot there was a point in time when all I wanted to do was bench @ 5.2GHz with both my 2500k and 2600k:
These clocks were stable in Cinebench, and 3DMark. And I wouldn't have been able to run at these clocks and voltages if it were not for my setup.
Surprisingly those Cooler Master LED Bling Fans you claim are good for 60 cfm each. More than enough to bring cold air through the front of the case. Not that far off from the 70 you claim.
I don't recommend Noctua fans either, but lets be honest about what people are actually going to buy added into the cost of their new Air Cooler.
What you have noticed though is Air Cooler designs have stagnated. As it seems pretty much everyone copies everyone else in their designs. Which is why they all perform pretty similar at this point. And just so you know my H100 has a 5 year warranty. Which means, I'm covered for 5 years. I purchased it in 2012, I'm good until 2017 if anything happens. You wouldn't put a 5 year warranty on a product that was cheap, trust me. It would have a two year warranty tops. But the fact that they put a 5 year warranty on it just proves the quality assurance of the product. Trust me they aren't as cheap as you think. Just knowing that I can hold onto this until 2017 and if anything happens I will most likely get it replaced with a newer model.
I wasn't really talking about an H60, more or less referring to something like an H80. They cost the same as a D15 in retrospect.
My point in posting that is to show you that the H105 in comparison to an H110i GT is like night and day. These AIO Cooler improve vastly every year. Even the H100 to the H100i to the H105 to the H100i GTX. Or the H100 to the H110 to the H110i GT. So much improvements in such a small amount of time. Compared to the D14 and D15 that practically perform the same aside from fans.
Problem when you test on an open test bench is it becomes further from real world application, when you have positive and negative pressure effecting air flow inside a case. I don't know what he likes or dislikes, what I know is that his results seem pretty far from some more trusted sources. Which is why I always question people who do things "in their free time." When are their results ever going to be as qualified as someone who is getting payed? Honest question. Do you work for free? Would you work for free? Would you trust someone to do work for you that normally costs money but are saying they would do it for free? You have to wonder why their results differ so much from other peoples and what is their motivation in doing something so intensive for free. Fact of the matter is for all we know he could really just like doing the testing and enjoy it. But by no means does it make that person qualified in doing the tests or makes the person trusted just because they appear to be neutral on the surface.
Pretty sure, "some" is an understatement.
Arctic F12's are only 1350 rpm and only produce 74 cfm at max speed not that much better than those "bling bling LED stock cooler master fans." Only reason why they are slightly better is because they spin slightly faster. The Thermalright TY series cost $15.99 here, so right about where I said it costs to purchase a high quality fan.
Now Radiators are very restrictive even though they are designed to have air flow pushing through them? Please don't tell me you actually believe this. They are designed for usage with fans, obviously they will be no more restrictive than the heat sink fins on an Air Cooler. You are flip flopping because you are claiming the Air Coolers can perform as good as AIO Coolers with fans normalized at the same speeds, yet negating that if you put higher RPM fans on your cooler they will be equally as loud.
I see the Raystorm 750 kit, a highly recommended kit, 6C behind the H110i GT. How are you saying they aren't very far off? Even the H100i is 2C cooler. Mind you the Raystorm kit has the fans at 12v.
Skylake also comes in at 1.3v stock, while Haswell came in at 1.026-1.028. Quite a difference there in voltage, just because TDP is similar doesn't mean the difference in voltage means dissipation requirements are going to be the same. Voltage is a big part of the equation.
Just because some of the big youtubers don't know everything, doesn't mean they don't know anything. Most of them got into their positions because they have been a reliable source of information. Trust me more often than not I correct mainstream Youtubers in comments with mistakes they have made. But as a whole they are pretty reliable. You shouldn't discredit someone just because they have a few mistakes, everyone is fallible as a human. I wouldn't go seek the results I desire for the opinions I have, just because the results from people that are trusted differ from my opinions. I would tend to lean towards the concept of rearranging my opinions based on the average information available.
The thing is you don't even need to invest in a custom loop or bigger rad or make things more complicated than they have to be. As I showed you above, simply swapping out the fans with higher static pressure fans can be a night and day difference with an AIO Cooler. You don't even have to run those fans at maximum speeds to maintain the performance advantage either. I think you are not analyzing what you are claiming, the fact that they use water to dissipate heat naturally makes them better and more efficient than an air cooler. By claiming water offers no advantage, you might as well claim that a custom loop offers no advantage for the same reasons. Even when AIO Coolers have the fans normalized to Air Coolers speeds, the AIO Coolers still outperform the Air Coolers. This would be the same whether at low RPMs or High RPMS. As AIO Coolers respond much better to High Static Pressure fans, than an Air Cooler responds to High CFM fans.
"Similar Performance in Fair Tests" is translated to, the tests that I claim are not fair, are not fair because they show Air Coolers getting outperformed. Therefore I don't accept these "not fair tests" as valid because I'm being opinionated.
If you don't believe a CLC will allow you to overclock further than an Air Cooler, then I'm sure this pretty much ends our discussion because now you are being incredibly ignorant to reality. An Air Cooler can not and will not efficiently dissipate heat at High Voltages and High Overclocks compared to an AIO Cooler. As I showed you from numerous benchmarks already. Please show me an Air Cooler that can effectively keep a CPU under 75C @ 5.2GHz @ 1.5v. Please do.
Let's bring up OC3D for a second,
"Finally our 4.6GHz test. Don't be fooled, this is an extreme test and the graph reflects this, you will only see the very best featured in this graph."
Translation, Air Coolers didn't make it into this test because they cannot efficiently dissipate the heat on a 6 core CPU @ 4.6GHz @ 1.45v:
And I'm trying to ask you to show me an Air Cooler remaining under 75C @ 5.2GHz @ 1.5v.
I rather continue throwing around terms like garbage and retarded. When you make ridiculous claims like "water doesn't offer any advantage over air, because they use aluminum radiators" Even after I showed you graphs that show you even the Swiftech H220X doesn't perform that much better than a standard AIO Cooler nor do some of the top Custom Loop kits as you can see clearly from the above graph. Sorry but I think you are running out of arguments, and you are starting to make things up as you go along, but the evidence doesn't change in the slightest.Edited by BiG StroOnZ - 8/19/15 at 3:46pm