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post #41 of 50
I just took out the crappy 200mm fan an installed the 2x 140mm fans in the 140mm mounts and that was that.
Seravee
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Seravee
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post #42 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

Hmm, we'll see about that later.

I challenge you to find another of your graphs that shows the NHD15 being as loud as a H110 GTX Please add the source the graph itself is meaningless without context. Guru3d is showing almost every cooler in that test as within 3 DB, that's magical.

Here's a video of the H110 GT at full fan vs the H240X scroll to 11.30 mins to have a listen.

https://youtu.be/qL8DxuUth7U

In contrast look at any other review of the NHD15 to see how it does in sound pressure. You like Hard OCP?

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2015/03/11/corsair_hydro_h110i_gt_ext_perf_aio_cpu_cooler_review/3#.VdM_xZfo6So

Not in this universe

No

Is Anandtech a Garbage source? http://www.anandtech.com/show/9415/top-tier-cpu-air-coolers-9way-roundup-review/12

3 top coolers within 1cish margin of error at a 340 watt load, and the Reeven Okeanos, which uses really fast fans, I dont actually like Anands cooler reviews as I'd rather see what happens on an actual chip then just total thermal resistance or whatever. Its been shown across quite a few reviews that these 3 a very close and switch places depending on the site.

In the really real world, most people buy the best non custom loop coolers you can get and only use the stock case fans to overclock is what you are saying?

Then why do tests that negate this difference show different results? If the difference is 3C inside the case to out, which it can easily be or more in a badly ventilated case like they use in those 'real world' reviews it skews the results. Its not always the case that it causes other components to overheat, but when you add SLI high ambient temps or a mix of the two it can be a problem if your airflow's bad.

Not true, see above, there's also the Silver Arrow IBE extreme which uses 2500rpm fans, in the HardOCP tests it really is boiling in its own exhaust in that stock case, its an older review but Tweaktown puts it 8c ahead of the Phanteks TC14PE on a 2600k

Then why do tests that negate this difference show different results? If the difference is 3C inside the case to out, which it can easily be or more in a badly ventilated case like they use in those 'real world' reviews it skews the results. Its not always the case that it causes other components to overheat, but when you add SLI high ambient temps or a mix of the two it can be a problem if your airflow's bad.

I could also strap a couple of deltas to my cooler and add one as an exhaust

Their NHD15 states only this this:

'We deliberately installed it this way so that hot air will exit on the top rear of a chassis. We also did this to show that the high-profile memory DIMMS are not being blocked by the cooler radiator fins. So yes, that's all folks. The NH-D15 is definitely bulky, big and as always the brown/beige colors are the Noctua trademark. Like the looks or not, these are among the best coolers available on the globe. But let me demonstrate that and put these coolers through our test suite.'

Look at the mount they have in the picture, whats that all about?

It adds more thought, yes, but I covered that already. You could buy decent fans that would cool your GPU and other components and still come in under the price of a 240/280 CLC

Fanboy, of a cooling solution? I do agree that I wish more good sites would do reviews on hex/octa cores with higher voltages on an open bench.

I have explained why some sites show huge differences and others little

I've yet to find a site that tests at high voltages outside of a case, I wish someone would. I really am just concerned with the truth of the matter, it interests me and so I've looked and thought about it a lot over the last couple years

Source? Graphs without the review linky again, doesnt look like a graph from anywhere I know well, and I know most of the better ones

Showed you 2 different tests with the H110 GT and Nepton 280l earlier with clearly stated sound methodology from places with no advertising agenda which you called garbage.

Fun fact if you didnt know, most of the AIO's are made by the same OEM's either Asetek or Coolit I believe Coolermaster make their own designs, Corsair and NZXT then add their own bling and fans, maybe they ask for a minor pump revision, unsurprisingly they often perform similarly, Kraken X61 beats the H110GT in some reviews.

You only need add a couple of fans normally, its not rocket science and it will help your GPU as well

Untrue if you normalize the fans and situation, covered this

Ok, thats true, another fun fact, if you put the fans from the NHD15 on the NHD14 they perform almost the same. Might be why you cant buy them separately from the cooler

Is it not possible this will be mitigated by lower power usage, IHS improvements maybe etc?.

Currently they use weaker pumps and aluminium rads for the largest part, so yes there is room for a lot of improvement, take a look at how the H220x/H240x does with a copper rad and decent pump, better temps at lower noise levels. No competition from air coolers or CLC's there, its a smidge off a custom loop. No idea whether air cooling will be phased out of enthusiast computing, even if it is, how does that relate to today?

Nice crystal ball you have there, and I'm not defending anything I'm just stating what I know.

Very nice way of deciding to reply to me, very convenient. wth.gif

We shouldn't have to see about that later, we can see it now:





This is how I will explain to you why they are equivalent in loudness, if they are both running at the same speed they are both 140mm fans which on average will produce similar loudness levels. While the H110i GT fans do spin faster, they also have settings where you can lower the RPMs setting them to low mode. If you looked at the chart you linked from Hard OCP you would instantly see this:



In Low mode, the fans are actually quieter than a Noctua D15, if you actually read the review instead of just linking it you would notice they say this:

"What is surprising is how quiet these fans get at the lowest RPM setting. These not only become the third quietest fans ever tested on a water cooler but these Corsair fans very nearly become the quietest fans we ever tested on any cooler!"

If your argument continually becomes that if you normalize the fan speeds, and use the same speed fans on an Air Cooler you will get closer results to an AIO. What you aren't accounting for is it will also become louder, and any argument you had about it being quieter is automatically invalidated. Because if you are replacing those fans with Higher RPM fans, naturally your decibel levels will go up. However, I still disagree with you that you will get equivalent performance even with the same fans. You wouldn't say the same about a custom loop, obviously the same applies to an AIO Cooler, because as you can see here, even some decent custom loop kits perform similar to an AIO:



Sorry but as I pointed out, they are equivalent in loudness. And even on Low mode, it will outperform an Air Cooler as you can see in the above chart. So if loudness becomes your argument now, you will lose that too.

I don't see Anandtech testing with a CPU. As you mentioned, so I'm not sure why that would be considered a reliable source based on their methods. Most reviews have the D15 pulling ahead of the other coolers. While the other coolers do perform the same, or similar, the D15 tends to pull ahead from that pack.

Yes the Silver Arrow is one of the few coolers that is comparable to a D15 (it is mostly because it is a very similar design), but I don't really see people recommending their stuff anymore which is why I wasn't including it with what I was saying. They also haven't made anything really new for high performance Coolers in quite some time.

Different results happen because of many different reasons. You cannot replicate the same result across different systems, in different rooms, with different ambient temperatures. While myself personally I recommend bringing cold air in from outside the case, into the case with a CLC (intake) many people on various websites have tried reversing it to exhaust with little changes in temperature. SLI or Crossfire generally brings more heat, which should be considered an outlier if you are trying to compare results of having an AIO as intake or exhaust. Most people run Crossfire or SLI but don't have side intake fans (blow holes) blowing cold air onto their GPUs, then of course they don't have a fan as exhaust that is fast enough to suck the heat out of the case. So eventually heat builds up in the case, so if you have Air Intaking from your CLC, but aren't exhausting it fast enough. Obviously this will cause a rise in temperatures. But again if you are investing in an SLI or Crossfire setup, most of the time it means you will invest in the tools needed to properly run that setup. Which means a higher RPM fan exhausting the heat out of the case. Where then if you can do that properly, whether you have your AIO as Intake or Exhaust won't really make a difference. Another thing is people generally don't know that if you are going SLI it is best to use the reference coolers, as blower style coolers are better for SLI. This blows the heat directly out of the case. But again as I said previously this is mostly an outlier when trying to figure out why having a CLC as exhaust or intake makes such a big difference. Generally speaking though, if you run a single GPU and you have a decent case that includes a nice amount of stock fans (most cases do this) you won't see groundbreaking improvements from changing the direction of your CLC. However, changing the direction of it might effect CPU temperatures slightly.

Yes but strapping Delta's to your Air Cooler are not going to make nearly as much as a difference as they do when you strap them to an AIO Cooler. Just as if you strapped Deltas to your custom loop, you wouldn't say the performance would be comparable to an Air Cooler strapped with Deltas.

I suggest you go watch some of OC3D's Videos, and you will see the computers he uses for his test setup. They are far from stock. But not like that matters, did you even bother to see the fan configuration of the Storm Trooper, even stock it has plenty air flow:

Front : 120 mm LED fan x2, 1200 RPM, 17 dBA

Rear: 140 mm fan x1 1200 RPM

Top: 200 mm fan x 1

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, if they are still using their older test setup it shouldn't really matter:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), default quality

http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/corsair-h100i-review,6.html

I'm not so sure about that, most Noctua fans are in the $20 range. I mean you can even use Newegg to find out this isn't true. Buy three Noctua fans and you are at $60. On top of the $90 it costs to buy a NH-D15, now you are at $150. More than an H110i GT.

I call people fan boys of Air Cooling because it is 2015 and people recommend the same sized bulky Air Coolers now that I was recommended back in 2004 when I was building my Athlon 64. Yeah I used to rock Thermalright back then, I had the Thermalright XP-90 and as soon as the XP-120 came out I upgraded to that. They were great, and did everything they needed to do. But that was then, this is now. AIO coolers have given people close to custom loop temps in a simpler form factor for anyone to have the ability to use. And people continually perpetuate fear mongering towards them with the same tired arguments over and over. Oh CLC's can leak. Go check Newegg reviews, see how many leak. Most of them have 4 or 5 eggs. Even if you google, you don't get that many results from leaky AIOs. Trounce that argument, then they say pump failures. Again go look at Newegg reviews, very rarely do you see pump failures. They are not as common as people like to insinuate. Again, I'm talking about Corsair AIOs cannot comment about other companies. But regardless, if you do look around you will find results with high voltages, high overclocks, and/or multicore chips. Here you see AIOs shine, which is mainly my argument against Air Coolers. Sure if you aren't going to overclock that much, you don't need to invest in an AIO but this is Overclock.net after all.

I think your explanations need to be brought to reality, that you are trying to make it appear that AIO Coolers and Air Coolers have similar performance. When they really don't. Because even the best Air Coolers are on par with low end AIO Coolers.

Well, see, you specifically want to find results inside your characterization of a proper testing method. While you will find results that do this, you don't accept them as valid because they don't fit to your "standard" of how it should be done. Instead of just looking at the results and accepting them for how they are.

That Graph is from PCPer:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases-and-Cooling/Corsair-H105-Extreme-Performance-Liquid-CPU-Cooler-Review/Test-Setup-and-T

They also give you a good example of what I'm saying between the difference of "high voltage testing" and "low voltage testing"

You state people don't have an agenda, but anyone who shows a 3-4C difference between a 280mm rad cooler and a 120mm rad cooler should automatically be ignored. They have an H75 within 3-4 degrees of the H110i GT. Guru3D has the H110i GT 8C ahead of an H80i GT. A far superior cooler than an H75, to put things in contrast.

Yes I know that CoolIT Systems and Asetek produce the majority of the CLC coolers out there and license their designs to other companies. This is the main reason why I recommend them, because their quality is unsurpassed currently in the industry. You see people recommending Swiftech, yet they do not even read the reviews of Swiftech:



Granted this is from their H220, but they aren't even allowed to sell on Newegg anymore. Which is why you don't see the H220X.

Whether it is only a couple of fans, or three fans. Decent fans costs $15-20 x 3 = $45-60. Added cost, to the overall budget of what someone is spending when doing a first build. Which is accounted for if they choose a good stock case already (that comes with decent fans) and purchases an AIO Cooler. If you have to swap out fans or add more fans or change fans. This makes the overall cost of an Air Cooler the same as an AIO, that would be mostly fine using the stock fans in the case.

You covered this but are flip flopping in the midst of it. If you are normalizing fan speeds, decibel readings will also be normalized. However, even though this is true, what is not true is that you will have equivalent performance. As stated previously, you will still see an AIO Cooler ahead. It's no different than saying if you had a custom loop kit and you had the same fans on that on an Air Cooler they would perform identical. Obviously this doesn't make any sense, the only reason why nobody would accept this notion is because it's a custom loop. However, the same should apply to an AIO because they are very similar and perform quite similar if you look at the numbers that I posted above from OC3D where you will see some custom loop kits pitted up against some AIO coolers.

From what we have seen from Intel, they are no longer soldering Mainstream chips (this might be for numerous of reasons) they also are cheaping out on the thermal interface material used between the die and IHS. I doubt this will get any better in the future. And as we see from Skylake, so far, the lower power requirements don't seem to be happening as Skylake comes stock @ 1.3v. This is only on 14nm, what is it going to look like further down the line.

It relates to today, because we are at a cusp in CPUs and cooling. Where CPUs are getting hotter, they are coming in at higher voltages stock, they need higher voltages to overclock further and the previous cooling methods will just not be applicable any more now and in the near future. Skylake needs like 1.4-1.45v to hit 4.8-4.9GHz. Those voltages are fine for an AIO Cooler, but will not be tolerated by an Air Cooler. This person right here is doing a Skylake build. If he ever decides to overclock further than just the day to day 4.4-4.5GHz he might not be able to if he doesn't have the appropriate cooling. Which means you have to replace the cooler anyway instead of just making a smart investment in the first place. Look at Logan from Tek Syndicate, from his own build he went from Air Cooling to an AIO Cooler because the Air Cooler just couldn't handle a measly 100MHz difference in overclock on a 5960X. It could handle 4.3GHz but not 4.4GHz, so in order to get to 4.4GHz he had to upgrade to an H110i GT. Seems kind of nonsensical in that, if he just had a decent AIO cooler to begin with he wouldn't even have to worry. But just to hit that small fraction of 100MHz made all the difference, to the point where he had to replace the cooler entirely. Which I why I state even 5C is a big deal when it comes to overclocking.
Edited by BiG StroOnZ - 8/18/15 at 2:23pm
post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Very nice way of deciding to reply to me, very convenient. wth.gif

I disagree with pretty much everything you say so it was easiest to keep track so I got everything. wink.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


We shouldn't have to see about that later, we can see it now:

I showed you in the two lines after with a chart and video, Guru 3d have recently been caught out achieving Firestrike exteme scores in a review on a 980ti that no one else could replicate at the same clocks. Hilberts response was to perma ban the guy who questioned it. They have also posted a CPUz screenshot for a new AMD hex core as 'news' that was started in the OMPT on OCN, gotta get those clicks in. I haven't really fully trusted them since TBH

http://www.overclock.net/t/1560262/what-do-you-do-when-one-website-has-results-that-dont-gel-with-anyones-experience

http://www.overclock.net/a/a-troubling-trend


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post





This is how I will explain to you why they are equivalent in loudness, if they are both running at the same speed they are both 140mm fans which on average will produce similar loudness levels. While the H110i GT fans do spin faster, they also have settings where you can lower the RPMs setting them to low mode. If you looked at the chart you linked from Hard OCP you would instantly see this:



In Low mode, the fans are actually quieter than a Noctua D15, if you actually read the review instead of just linking it you would notice they say this:

"What is surprising is how quiet these fans get at the lowest RPM setting. These not only become the third quietest fans ever tested on a water cooler but these Corsair fans very nearly become the quietest fans we ever tested on any cooler!"

If your argument continually becomes that if you normalize the fan speeds, and use the same speed fans on an Air Cooler you will get closer results to an AIO. What you aren't accounting for is it will also become louder, and any argument you had about it being quieter is automatically invalidated. Because if you are replacing those fans with Higher RPM fans, naturally your decibel levels will go up.


When you run it in low mode most of the top CLC's will perform about well as an air cooler with its fans on max, despite the fact they are running the same speed with more similar noise levels. If you want the extra performance you have to turn the fans up. You could do the same if you bought some faster fans for you air cooler and still come in under the price of a CLC. But my point continue to be that you can get similar performance from an air cooler as a CLC if you use the same fans on the cooler, and almost the same performance at stock as shown by reviews that give fair reviews on an open bench while being much quieter, therefore measure the cooler intake temperature, not the room ambient

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


However, I still disagree with you that you will get equivalent performance even with the same fans. You wouldn't say the same about a custom loop, obviously the same applies to an AIO Cooler, because as you can see here, even some decent custom loop kits perform similar to an AIO:


I really dont have time to look up all those custom kits, but after a quick look at the best performing one on that chart I can see its using a basic pump, its got a 240mm radiator and its using 1650rpm 120mm fans that arent going to push as much air as the 2000rpm+ 140mm the CLC's are using. CLC's are not the same as custom kits, not even close, aluminium is not as good at dispersing heat as copper, that is why the CLC's all use high FPI aluminium rads and high pressure high RPM fans. See how the swiftech H220/240x outperforms or matches CLC's with slower fans while being quieter? Because it has a good pump and a copper radiator.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post



Sorry but as I pointed out, they are equivalent in loudness. And even on Low mode, it will outperform an Air Cooler as you can see in the above chart. So if loudness becomes your argument now, you will lose that too.

[/B]CLC's are built to work their magic at the highest revs so that they can top the review graphs and people who dont really look into things will look and see them at the top. Honestly the idea that they are equivalent in loudness is just not true at max revs. It may sometimes be closer to true on the quiet profile but in that case you are not getting the performance you paid the dollar for.[/B]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


I don't see Anandtech testing with a CPU. As you mentioned, so I'm not sure why that would be considered a reliable source based on their methods. Most reviews have the D15 pulling ahead of the other coolers. While the other coolers do perform the same, or similar, the D15 tends to pull ahead from that pack. Yes the Silver Arrow is one of the few coolers that is comparable to a D15 (it is mostly because it is a very similar design), but I don't really see people recommending their stuff anymore which is why I wasn't including it with what I was saying. They also haven't made anything really new for high performance Coolers in quite some time.

Most people are sold on Noctuas products just being the best, much like CLC's. The truth is always more complicated then the general consensus of opinion. When a cooler is within 2-3 c it's within the margin of error for a good mount to an average one. Thats why the very best reviews do an average of several mounts for their testing. Cryorig R1 Ultimate is about even with the NHD15, you could argue that the Phanteks is slightly behind but its a matter of 1-3 c max. Quite a few other air coolers are close. They all have very similar designs. If you want to say the NHD15 is king sure, thats fine, but if it is its a matter of 1c max.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post



Different results happen because of many different reasons. You cannot replicate the same result across different systems, in different rooms, with different ambient temperatures. While myself personally I recommend bringing cold air in from outside the case, into the case with a CLC (intake) many people on various websites have tried reversing it to exhaust with little changes in temperature. SLI or Crossfire generally brings more heat, which should be considered an outlier if you are trying to compare results of having an AIO as intake or exhaust. Most people run Crossfire or SLI but don't have side intake fans (blow holes) blowing cold air onto their GPUs, then of course they don't have a fan as exhaust that is fast enough to suck the heat out of the case. So eventually heat builds up in the case, so if you have Air Intaking from your CLC, but aren't exhausting it fast enough. Obviously this will cause a rise in temperatures. But again if you are investing in an SLI or Crossfire setup, most of the time it means you will invest in the tools needed to properly run that setup. Which means a higher RPM fan exhausting the heat out of the case. Where then if you can do that properly, whether you have your AIO as Intake or Exhaust won't really make a difference. Another thing is people generally don't know that if you are going SLI it is best to use the reference coolers, as blower style coolers are better for SLI. This blows the heat directly out of the case. But again as I said previously this is mostly an outlier when trying to figure out why having a CLC as exhaust or intake makes such a big difference. Generally speaking though, if you run a single GPU and you have a decent case that includes a nice amount of stock fans (most cases do this) you won't see groundbreaking improvements from changing the direction of your CLC. However, changing the direction of it might effect CPU temperatures slightly.


If the difference between in case temps and room is 3-4 C, which is pretty normal when you have an idling GPU and HDD's , and then you add in the fact that the test cases have very bad airflow the difference is only going to go up and up as a test continues and hot air builds up. Of course having the CLC as an intake is gong to cause a small rise in inside case temps, as you say it can be dealt with by adding more or stronger fans. The fact is this still gives the CLC an advantage over air coolers in reviews that dont take airflow into account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


Yes but strapping Delta's to your Air Cooler are not going to make nearly as much as a difference as they do when you strap them to an AIO Cooler. Just as if you strapped Deltas to your custom loop, you wouldn't say the performance would be comparable to an Air Cooler strapped with Deltas.

Again you cant compare a CLC to a custom loop, but sure you could get more of an advantage by strapping on Delts to a CLC the high FPI rad would benefit more then the silence optimized tower. However do people really try to set overclocking records on CLC's? There wouldnt be a point for average use, or even above average if you had to be in the same room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


You really cannot compare a custom loop to a CLC at all. It's true that the high FPI rad will benefit more from industrial fans then the air coolers which are designed for quiet, the opposite is also true. Air coolers perform better at lower RPMs because they are designed for quieter use. That is not to say that there is no benefit to using high RPM fans. As you can see from the Silver Arrow when properly ventilated it beats the Phanteks PHTC14PE by 8 C in the review I posted earlier. Now add those 2500 RPM fans to an NHD15 and take say 8c off of its result. You have something that outperforms most CLC's or at least matches them.


I suggest you go watch some of OC3D's Videos, and you will see the computers he uses for his test setup. They are far from stock. But not like that matters, did you even bother to see the fan configuration of the Storm Trooper, even stock it has plenty air flow:

Front : 120 mm LED fan x2, 1200 RPM, 17 dBA

Rear: 140 mm fan x1 1200 RPM

Top: 200 mm fan x 1

I'm not sure if it makes a difference, if they are still using their older test setup it shouldn't really matter:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v80), default quality

A pair of 1200 low RPM LED bling fans as intakes will not bring in enough air for a good air cooler at higher overclocks 70-80CFM is needed at least. Stock 1200RPM 120mm I'd besurprised if they managed to drag half that through the front mesh and filter. It's not a very good set up for airflow. And they dont even state whether they are running at 12v or 5V or PWM who knows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/corsair-h100i-review,6.html

I'm not so sure about that, most Noctua fans are in the $20 range. I mean you can even use Newegg to find out this isn't true. Buy three Noctua fans and you are at $60. On top of the $90 it costs to buy a NH-D15, now you are at $150. More than an H110i GT.


I dont recommend Noctua fans, theyre way overpriced for what they do, there are similar and better performing fans for cheaper. They are quiet though that's why people pay for them, that and Linus bigging them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

I call people fan boys of Air Cooling because it is 2015 and people recommend the same sized bulky Air Coolers now that I was recommended back in 2004 when I was building my Athlon 64. Yeah I used to rock Thermalright back then, I had the Thermalright XP-90 and as soon as the XP-120 came out I upgraded to that. They were great, and did everything they needed to do. But that was then, this is now. AIO coolers have given people close to custom loop temps in a simpler form factor for anyone to have the ability to use. And people continually perpetuate fear mongering towards them with the same tired arguments over and over. Oh CLC's can leak. Go check Newegg reviews, see how many leak. Most of them have 4 or 5 eggs. Even if you google, you don't get that many results from leaky AIOs. Trounce that argument, then they say pump failures. Again go look at Newegg reviews, very rarely do you see pump failures. They are not as common as people like to insinuate. Again, I'm talking about Corsair AIOs cannot comment about other companies. But regardless, if you do look around you will find results with high voltages, high overclocks, and/or multicore chips. Here you see AIOs shine, which is mainly my argument against Air Coolers. Sure if you aren't going to overclock that much, you don't need to invest in an AIO but this is Overclock.net after all.

Air coolers have come a long way from pancake coolers in 12 years, theyre hardly the same old anymore In the last 6 or so years maybe the design has gotten a bit stale .However, If I'd bought an NHD14 in 2009 I could still be rocking it today and doing OK. I dont think your pump will last that long to be fair. Which is fine if you dont care, but its just another point of failure, a designed in obsolesense they make those CLC's filthy cheap and sell them at huge a premium that just doesnt sit right with me for what you actually get in reality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


I think your explanations need to be brought to reality, that you are trying to make it appear that AIO Coolers and Air Coolers have similar performance. When they really don't. Because even the best Air Coolers are on par with low end AIO Coolers.


Corsair H60 performs the same as a dual tower? It doesnt even on the sources you have linked so far. I'm not trying to make anything appear, I'm showing my thought processes and reasonings. Your not buying what I'm showing you, which is fine. I'm not buying what youre selling either. tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Well, see, you specifically want to find results inside your characterization of a proper testing method. While you will find results that do this, you don't accept them as valid because they don't fit to your "standard" of how it should be done. Instead of just looking at the results and accepting them for how they are.

That Graph is from PCPer:

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases-and-Cooling/Corsair-H105-Extreme-Performance-Liquid-CPU-Cooler-Review/Test-Setup-and-T

They also give you a good example of what I'm saying between the difference of "high voltage testing" and "low voltage testing"

Interesting, It shows an NHD14 about 5c behind a H105 on a 4930k at 1.4 volts on an open bench, the best air coolers out today are a few degrees ahead of the NHD14, still using silence optimized fans
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

You state people don't have an agenda, but anyone who shows a 3-4C difference between a 280mm rad cooler and a 120mm rad cooler should automatically be ignored. They have an H75 within 3-4 degrees of the H110i GT. Guru3D has the H110i GT 8C ahead of an H80i GT. A far superior cooler than an H75, to put things in contrast.

I think that when you test on an open bench, things are much closer then some of the reviews would have us believe. The IHS becomes more of a heat bottleneck when you take bad airflow out of the equation. See the Tweaktown reviews as well very close all round compared to some of the crazy differences places get from in case tests. I think VSG/Gegegg actually likes CLC's I think he pretty much just loves testing anything cooler related
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post


Yes I know that CoolIT Systems and Asetek produce the majority of the CLC coolers out there and license their designs to other companies. This is the main reason why I recommend them, because their quality is unsurpassed currently in the industry. You see people recommending Swiftech, yet they do not even read the reviews of Swiftech:



Granted this is from their H220, but they aren't even allowed to sell on Newegg anymore. Which is why you don't see the H220X.

H220 had some problems yep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Whether it is only a couple of fans, or three fans. Decent fans costs $15-20 x 3 = $45-60. Added cost, to the overall budget of what someone is spending when doing a first build. Which is accounted for if they choose a good stock case already (that comes with decent fans) and purchases an AIO Cooler. If you have to swap out fans or add more fans or change fans. This makes the overall cost of an Air Cooler the same as an AIO, that would be mostly fine using the stock fans in the case.
Arctic F12's quite nice, pretty quiet, very cheap. I can also get Thermalright TY series here for 10 euros, as good as Noctuas IMO, almost the same design infact. You dont need to spend silly money on fans to get the same performance if you know what youre looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

You covered this but are flip flopping in the midst of it. If you are normalizing fan speeds, decibel readings will also be normalized.

The sound of air pushing through a very restrictive rad at the front or top of your case plus a pump at the same RPM cannot be the same noise vs the sound of two silence optimized fans inside the case. Logic dictates.
I also dont know how I'm flip flopping? I have remained constant in what Im saying AFAIK

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

However, even though this is true, what is not true is that you will have equivalent performance. As stated previously, you will still see an AIO Cooler ahead. It's no different than saying if you had a custom loop kit and you had the same fans on that on an Air Cooler they would perform identical. Obviously this doesn't make any sense, the only reason why nobody would accept this notion is because it's a custom loop. However, the same should apply to an AIO because they are very similar and perform quite similar if you look at the numbers that I posted above from OC3D where you will see some custom loop kits pitted up against some AIO coolers.

Copper rads, better pumps. You cannot compare copper to aluminium you cannot say that custom loops are like CLC's. The review you showed has the lowest end custom loop kits with much slower, smaller fans and smaller rads and not the best pumps. They are not very far off despite this. Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

From what we have seen from Intel, they are no longer soldering Mainstream chips (this might be for numerous of reasons) they also are cheaping out on the thermal interface material used between the die and IHS. I doubt this will get any better in the future. And as we see from Skylake, so far, the lower power requirements don't seem to be happening as Skylake comes stock @ 1.3v. This is only on 14nm, what is it going to look like further down the line.

It relates to today, because we are at a cusp in CPUs and cooling. Where CPUs are getting hotter, they are coming in at higher voltages stock, they need higher voltages to overclock further and the previous cooling methods will just not be applicable any more now and in the near future. Skylake needs like 1.4-1.45v to hit 4.8-4.9GHz. Those voltages are fine for an AIO Cooler, but will not be tolerated by an Air Cooler.

Voltage is only one part of the equation as far as heat is concerned, it's power that creates heat. Skylake TDP is 95 watt, 4790k is 88 Watts, you can go back to Core 2 Quads and it was still around the same for Quad cores. 65 watt to 95 watts has been about the range for years. If you want to talk about thermal dissipation over a smaller die, that affects every type of cooler because it all has to come through the IHS then the block/base
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

This person right here is doing a Skylake build. If he ever decides to overclock further than just the day to day 4.4-4.5GHz he might not be able to if he doesn't have the appropriate cooling. Which means you have to replace the cooler anyway instead of just making a smart investment in the first place. Look at Logan from Tek Syndicate, from his own build he went from Air Cooling to an AIO Cooler because the Air Cooler just couldn't handle a measly 100MHz difference in overclock on a 5960X. It could handle 4.3GHz but not 4.4GHz, so in order to get to 4.4GHz he had to upgrade to an H110i GT. Seems kind of nonsensical in that, if he just had a decent AIO cooler to begin with he wouldn't even have to worry. But just to hit that small fraction of 100MHz made all the difference, to the point where he had to replace the cooler entirely. Which I why I state even 5C is a big deal when it comes to overclocking.

I have to be honest I dont watch or trust any of the big Youtubers, all of their money comes from advertising and I simply do not trust their reviews from my limited experience of them. My first and pretty much only experience I had of Tek Syndicate was the review they did stating the FX 8350 was as good as a 3570k in GPU limited situations. So is a Sandy I3 Not to mention I've seen a few people around sitting on overclocked 5960x's with NH-D15's have a Google, or take his word for it. The only OC3d video I remember watching the guy reviewed the MSI 390X and was gushing about how it wasnt a rebrand at all the whole time and how great the PCB was and what an upgrade it was. Linus, well his GPU limited RAM speed testing review was the one that did it for me, they just look at things to simply and state that as the absolute truth. I dont trust them for my knowledge. That's why I trust individuals who do their own testing over site reviews. Or at least reviews where I can see that the methodology makes things fair and doesnt just have a talking head and a load of graphs/numbers with little to no context.

However I will say it. If you strap some Deltas to a 280mm high FPI ally rad it will perform better then a dual tower because it has more surface area to dissipate heat. The thing is at that point if you are overclocking to those extremes you would have thought about buying 480mm plus of good copper radiator instead, because that isnt going to be 24/7 overclocking on a single aluminium rad. You can increase the performance of an air cooler to very close to the best CLC's by adding faster fans. CLC's are not better because they include water. The main thing that's better is the increased airflow from the fans.

CLC goes Block>Water>Aluminium

Tower goes Block/Copper heat pipe>Aluminium

Water is not magical, it doesn't dissipate the heat, it moves it to the radiator which then dissipates the heat through the fans. This is why you see similar performance in fair tests. Air is a no contest when youre talking copper rads and pumps that push large amounts of water. Like a proper loop has.

I dont believe a CLC will not allow you to overclock any more then an air heatsink all things being equal on a quad core CPU. As I said hex core I think its the same from what little I've seen, 8 core I dont know yet, but if so youre talking screaming fan time, beacuse if the CLC can do it on low then the aircooler definitely can at stock.

We had more of a discussion now, it's much better then throwing around terms like 'retarded' and 'garbage' I feel. thumb.gif
Edited by Slink3Slyde - 8/19/15 at 9:34am
post #44 of 50
Thread Starter 
post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

I disagree with pretty much everything you say so it was easiest to keep track so I got everything. wink.gif

I showed you in the two lines after with a chart and video, Guru 3d have recently been caught out achieving Firestrike exteme scores in a review on a 980ti that no one else could replicate at the same clocks. Hilberts response was to perma ban the guy who questioned it. They have also posted a CPUz screenshot for a new AMD hex core as 'news' that was started in the OMPT on OCN, gotta get those clicks in. I haven't really fully trusted them since TBH

http://www.overclock.net/t/1560262/what-do-you-do-when-one-website-has-results-that-dont-gel-with-anyones-experience

http://www.overclock.net/a/a-troubling-trend


When you run it in low mode most of the top CLC's will perform about well as an air cooler with its fans on max, despite the fact they are running the same speed with more similar noise levels. If you want the extra performance you have to turn the fans up. You could do the same if you bought some faster fans for you air cooler and still come in under the price of a CLC. But my point continue to be that you can get similar performance from an air cooler as a CLC if you use the same fans on the cooler, and almost the same performance at stock as shown by reviews that give fair reviews on an open bench while being much quieter, therefore measure the cooler intake temperature, not the room ambient

I really dont have time to look up all those custom kits, but after a quick look at the best performing one on that chart I can see its using a basic pump, its got a 240mm radiator and its using 1650rpm 120mm fans that arent going to push as much air as the 2000rpm+ 140mm the CLC's are using. CLC's are not the same as custom kits, not even close, aluminium is not as good at dispersing heat as copper, that is why the CLC's all use high FPI aluminium rads and high pressure high RPM fans. See how the swiftech H220/240x outperforms or matches CLC's with slower fans while being quieter? Because it has a good pump and a copper radiator.

[/B]CLC's are built to work their magic at the highest revs so that they can top the review graphs and people who dont really look into things will look and see them at the top. Honestly the idea that they are equivalent in loudness is just not true at max revs. It may sometimes be closer to true on the quiet profile but in that case you are not getting the performance you paid the dollar for.[/B]

Most people are sold on Noctuas products just being the best, much like CLC's. The truth is always more complicated then the general consensus of opinion. When a cooler is within 2-3 c it's within the margin of error for a good mount to an average one. Thats why the very best reviews do an average of several mounts for their testing. Cryorig R1 Ultimate is about even with the NHD15, you could argue that the Phanteks is slightly behind but its a matter of 1-3 c max. Quite a few other air coolers are close. They all have very similar designs. If you want to say the NHD15 is king sure, thats fine, but if it is its a matter of 1c max.

If the difference between in case temps and room is 3-4 C, which is pretty normal when you have an idling GPU and HDD's , and then you add in the fact that the test cases have very bad airflow the difference is only going to go up and up as a test continues and hot air builds up. Of course having the CLC as an intake is gong to cause a small rise in inside case temps, as you say it can be dealt with by adding more or stronger fans. The fact is this still gives the CLC an advantage over air coolers in reviews that dont take airflow into account.


You really cannot compare a custom loop to a CLC at all. It's true that the high FPI rad will benefit more from industrial fans then the air coolers which are designed for quiet, the opposite is also true. Air coolers perform better at lower RPMs because they are designed for quieter use. That is not to say that there is no benefit to using high RPM fans. As you can see from the Silver Arrow when properly ventilated it beats the Phanteks PHTC14PE by 8 C in the review I posted earlier. Now add those 2500 RPM fans to an NHD15 and take say 8c off of its result. You have something that outperforms most CLC's or at least matches them.

Again you cant compare a CLC to a custom loop, but sure you could get more of an advantage by strapping on Delts to a CLC the high FPI rad would benefit more then the silence optimized tower. However do people really try to set overclocking records on CLC's? There wouldnt be a point for average use, or even above average if you had to be in the same room.

A pair of 1200 low RPM LED bling fans as intakes will not bring in enough air for a good air cooler at higher overclocks 70-80CFM is needed at least. Stock 1200RPM 120mm I'd besurprised if they managed to drag half that through the front mesh and filter. It's not a very good set up for airflow. And they dont even state whether they are running at 12v or 5V or PWM who knows?

I dont recommend Noctua fans, theyre way overpriced for what they do, there are similar and better performing fans for cheaper. They are quiet though that's why people pay for them, that and Linus bigging them up.

Air coolers have come a long way from pancake coolers in 12 years, theyre hardly the same old anymore In the last 6 or so years maybe the design has gotten a bit stale .However, If I'd bought an NHD14 in 2009 I could still be rocking it today and doing OK. I dont think your pump will last that long to be fair. Which is fine if you dont care, but its just another point of failure, a designed in obsolesense they make those CLC's filthy cheap and sell them at huge a premium that just doesnt sit right with me for what you actually get in reality.

Corsair H60 performs the same as a dual tower? It doesnt even on the sources you have linked so far. I'm not trying to make anything appear, I'm showing my thought processes and reasonings. Your not buying what I'm showing you, which is fine. I'm not buying what youre selling either. tongue.gif


Interesting, It shows an NHD14 about 5c behind a H105 on a 4930k at 1.4 volts on an open bench, the best air coolers out today are a few degrees ahead of the NHD14, still using silence optimized fans

I think that when you test on an open bench, things are much closer then some of the reviews would have us believe. The IHS becomes more of a heat bottleneck when you take bad airflow out of the equation. See the Tweaktown reviews as well very close all round compared to some of the crazy differences places get from in case tests. I think VSG/Gegegg actually likes CLC's I think he pretty much just loves testing anything cooler related

H220 had some problems yep.

Arctic F12's quite nice, pretty quiet, very cheap. I can also get Thermalright TY series here for 10 euros, as good as Noctuas IMO, almost the same design infact. You dont need to spend silly money on fans to get the same performance if you know what youre looking for.

The sound of air pushing through a very restrictive rad at the front or top of your case plus a pump at the same RPM cannot be the same noise vs the sound of two silence optimized fans inside the case. Logic dictates.
I also dont know how I'm flip flopping? I have remained constant in what Im saying AFAIK

Copper rads, better pumps. You cannot compare copper to aluminium you cannot say that custom loops are like CLC's. The review you showed has the lowest end custom loop kits with much slower, smaller fans and smaller rads and not the best pumps. They are not very far off despite this. Why?

Voltage is only one part of the equation as far as heat is concerned, it's power that creates heat. Skylake TDP is 95 watt, 4790k is 88 Watts, you can go back to Core 2 Quads and it was still around the same for Quad cores. 65 watt to 95 watts has been about the range for years. If you want to talk about thermal dissipation over a smaller die, that affects every type of cooler because it all has to come through the IHS then the block/base

I have to be honest I dont watch or trust any of the big Youtubers, all of their money comes from advertising and I simply do not trust their reviews from my limited experience of them. My first and pretty much only experience I had of Tek Syndicate was the review they did stating the FX 8350 was as good as a 3570k in GPU limited situations. So is a Sandy I3 Not to mention I've seen a few people around sitting on overclocked 5960x's with NH-D15's have a Google, or take his word for it. The only OC3d video I remember watching the guy reviewed the MSI 390X and was gushing about how it wasnt a rebrand at all the whole time and how great the PCB was and what an upgrade it was. Linus, well his GPU limited RAM speed testing review was the one that did it for me, they just look at things to simply and state that as the absolute truth. I dont trust them for my knowledge. That's why I trust individuals who do their own testing over site reviews. Or at least reviews where I can see that the methodology makes things fair and doesnt just have a talking head and a load of graphs/numbers with little to no context.

However I will say it. If you strap some Deltas to a 280mm high FPI ally rad it will perform better then a dual tower because it has more surface area to dissipate heat. The thing is at that point if you are overclocking to those extremes you would have thought about buying 480mm plus of good copper radiator instead, because that isnt going to be 24/7 overclocking on a single aluminium rad. You can increase the performance of an air cooler to very close to the best CLC's by adding faster fans. CLC's are not better because they include water. The main thing that's better is the increased airflow from the fans.

CLC goes Block>Water>Aluminium

Tower goes Block/Copper heat pipe>Aluminium

Water is not magical, it doesn't dissipate the heat, it moves it to the radiator which then dissipates the heat through the fans. This is why you see similar performance in fair tests. Air is a no contest when youre talking copper rads and pumps that push large amounts of water. Like a proper loop has.

I dont believe a CLC will not allow you to overclock any more then an air heatsink all things being equal on a quad core CPU. As I said hex core I think its the same from what little I've seen, 8 core I dont know yet, but if so youre talking screaming fan time, beacuse if the CLC can do it on low then the aircooler definitely can at stock.

We had more of a discussion now, it's much better then throwing around terms like 'retarded' and 'garbage' I feel. thumb.gif

Yes, but replying in that manner makes it difficult for the next person to reply, since in the following reply the quote doesn't apply.

Okay, but it seems the sources you use to qualify as factual and the sources I use differ. I use mainstream sources, where yours are pretty iffy. They also have results that are extremely different than the mainstream sources, which is if I was you I would take them with a grain of salt. But it seems you have your mind set, because of these questionable sources, so trying to enlighten you won't seem to work.

Sorry I'm not going to discredit Guru3D because of childish drama. And I'm not getting involved in a situation where people willingly created fake information, just so a tech news outlet picks it up. Makes both parties wrong in that sense, but definitely doesn't invalidate the trustworthiness of a source that is credible 99.9% of the time.

I already showed you numerous sources that disproves these claims of yours, even with the fans on the lowest settings the H110i GT still outperforms a D15. With the fans on the lowest settings they run at under 1500 rpm (which is what the D15 runs at). So you get a quieter setup than an Air Cooler and still better performance. Did you not even bother to look at the OC3D graph I posted that shows this? How can you continually repeat the same misinformation even after I showed you graphs that proves this. Stop trying to create your perfect idea of what a proper test setup is. Seems like you are specifically trying to create scenarios in which an Air Cooler actually has a chance. Wherein, at that point, why even test at all? You are trying to create favorable results for an Air Cooler already knowing that they will perform worse. But yet in your mind, you need to have this ideal scenario in which an Air Cooler magically performs on the same level as an AIO Cooler. Seems like a pretty skewed mindset.

Even with the better pumps and copper radiators, it still gets outperformed by an AIO Cooler, even in quiet mode, with the fans lower than the 1650 rpm fans. The Swiftech H220X is overhyped, it barely performs better than an H105 (but you keep on making claims that copper radiators make so much difference, and therefore Air Cooling is better or on par with Water Cooling with Aluminum Radiators):



And the H105 is not even on the same level as the H110i GT or H100i GTX.

It is true, you are pushing air either through a radiator or through layered heat fins. They will end up producing similar noise levels regardless because air resistance is pretty close to equal. While you might not get as much performance, they have numerous modes, like Balanced mode which gives you a nice balance between performance and loudness. Which as you can see from the OC3D review, still performs pretty well.

"At the lower and more bearable RPMs engendered by the "Balanced" mode the H110i GT still put in a sterling performance bettering all other units at the “Balanced” level and even beating some AIOs at their full RPM setting. The most surprising set of results though was the figures we achieved with "Quiet" mode enabled. at this level the fans are audible, but only just by the merest whisper, even then the H110i GT is still way up the charts"

I showed you a review where the Cryorig R1 is worse than the dated H100i by about 6C. Even a D15 was closer to an H100i than 6C. So I'm not going to agree that the Cryorig R1 Ultimate is on par with a D15.

Most cases are already designed to be used with an Air Cooler, and the airflow inside of these cases is more than acceptable. It's only recently you started seeing case companies employ dual 120mm or dual 140mm fan positioning in the top of the case to support an AIO Cooler. Most cases come stock loaded with decent fans. While they aren't as good as aftermarket fans, they are more than acceptable for an Air Cooler.

All you have to do is put on 2500rpm fans on a CLC and you will leave that D15 with 2500 rpm fans in the dust. As shown numerous times already, with fan speeds even running at lower speeds on the AIO than on the Air Cooler, the Air Cooler still loses to an AIO Cooler. This will remain the same if you increase the fan speeds obviously. Meaning if the fan speeds are normalized, clearly the Air Cooler will still lose. Especially if you take into the account the fact that the Air Cooler loses to the AIO Cooler with the AIO Cooler's fans at lower RPMs than the Air Cooler. You even claimed that Air Coolers perform better with lower speed fans, so obviously they wont scale as well with higher speed fans compared to an AIO Cooler. doh.gif

While you might say you cannot compare a CLC to a custom loop, you can say they can offer pretty similar performance at this point currently. The only difference is when you add more radiators with a custom loop, you can begin to add slower RPM fans while achieving the same performance as single radiator setups with higher RPM fans. Meaning you are getting good performance, but at quieter levels. Just look at my setup, even with my Deltas fans on 50%, I still achieve temperatures in the 55C range. This is with the dated original H100, with the pump on max setting. These are performance numbers you would expect from a custom loop. And for me, I made this setup to do overclocking records for myself, while I don't go on HWBot there was a point in time when all I wanted to do was bench @ 5.2GHz with both my 2500k and 2600k:





These clocks were stable in Cinebench, and 3DMark. And I wouldn't have been able to run at these clocks and voltages if it were not for my setup.

Surprisingly those Cooler Master LED Bling Fans you claim are good for 60 cfm each. More than enough to bring cold air through the front of the case. Not that far off from the 70 you claim.

I don't recommend Noctua fans either, but lets be honest about what people are actually going to buy added into the cost of their new Air Cooler.

What you have noticed though is Air Cooler designs have stagnated. As it seems pretty much everyone copies everyone else in their designs. Which is why they all perform pretty similar at this point. And just so you know my H100 has a 5 year warranty. Which means, I'm covered for 5 years. I purchased it in 2012, I'm good until 2017 if anything happens. You wouldn't put a 5 year warranty on a product that was cheap, trust me. It would have a two year warranty tops. But the fact that they put a 5 year warranty on it just proves the quality assurance of the product. Trust me they aren't as cheap as you think. Just knowing that I can hold onto this until 2017 and if anything happens I will most likely get it replaced with a newer model.

I wasn't really talking about an H60, more or less referring to something like an H80. They cost the same as a D15 in retrospect.



My point in posting that is to show you that the H105 in comparison to an H110i GT is like night and day. These AIO Cooler improve vastly every year. Even the H100 to the H100i to the H105 to the H100i GTX. Or the H100 to the H110 to the H110i GT. So much improvements in such a small amount of time. Compared to the D14 and D15 that practically perform the same aside from fans.

Problem when you test on an open test bench is it becomes further from real world application, when you have positive and negative pressure effecting air flow inside a case. I don't know what he likes or dislikes, what I know is that his results seem pretty far from some more trusted sources. Which is why I always question people who do things "in their free time." When are their results ever going to be as qualified as someone who is getting payed? Honest question. Do you work for free? Would you work for free? Would you trust someone to do work for you that normally costs money but are saying they would do it for free? You have to wonder why their results differ so much from other peoples and what is their motivation in doing something so intensive for free. Fact of the matter is for all we know he could really just like doing the testing and enjoy it. But by no means does it make that person qualified in doing the tests or makes the person trusted just because they appear to be neutral on the surface.

Pretty sure, "some" is an understatement.

Arctic F12's are only 1350 rpm and only produce 74 cfm at max speed not that much better than those "bling bling LED stock cooler master fans." Only reason why they are slightly better is because they spin slightly faster. The Thermalright TY series cost $15.99 here, so right about where I said it costs to purchase a high quality fan.

Now Radiators are very restrictive even though they are designed to have air flow pushing through them? Please don't tell me you actually believe this. They are designed for usage with fans, obviously they will be no more restrictive than the heat sink fins on an Air Cooler. You are flip flopping because you are claiming the Air Coolers can perform as good as AIO Coolers with fans normalized at the same speeds, yet negating that if you put higher RPM fans on your cooler they will be equally as loud.

I see the Raystorm 750 kit, a highly recommended kit, 6C behind the H110i GT. How are you saying they aren't very far off? Even the H100i is 2C cooler. Mind you the Raystorm kit has the fans at 12v.

Skylake also comes in at 1.3v stock, while Haswell came in at 1.026-1.028. Quite a difference there in voltage, just because TDP is similar doesn't mean the difference in voltage means dissipation requirements are going to be the same. Voltage is a big part of the equation.

Just because some of the big youtubers don't know everything, doesn't mean they don't know anything. Most of them got into their positions because they have been a reliable source of information. Trust me more often than not I correct mainstream Youtubers in comments with mistakes they have made. But as a whole they are pretty reliable. You shouldn't discredit someone just because they have a few mistakes, everyone is fallible as a human. I wouldn't go seek the results I desire for the opinions I have, just because the results from people that are trusted differ from my opinions. I would tend to lean towards the concept of rearranging my opinions based on the average information available.

The thing is you don't even need to invest in a custom loop or bigger rad or make things more complicated than they have to be. As I showed you above, simply swapping out the fans with higher static pressure fans can be a night and day difference with an AIO Cooler. You don't even have to run those fans at maximum speeds to maintain the performance advantage either. I think you are not analyzing what you are claiming, the fact that they use water to dissipate heat naturally makes them better and more efficient than an air cooler. By claiming water offers no advantage, you might as well claim that a custom loop offers no advantage for the same reasons. Even when AIO Coolers have the fans normalized to Air Coolers speeds, the AIO Coolers still outperform the Air Coolers. This would be the same whether at low RPMs or High RPMS. As AIO Coolers respond much better to High Static Pressure fans, than an Air Cooler responds to High CFM fans.

"Similar Performance in Fair Tests" is translated to, the tests that I claim are not fair, are not fair because they show Air Coolers getting outperformed. Therefore I don't accept these "not fair tests" as valid because I'm being opinionated.

If you don't believe a CLC will allow you to overclock further than an Air Cooler, then I'm sure this pretty much ends our discussion because now you are being incredibly ignorant to reality. An Air Cooler can not and will not efficiently dissipate heat at High Voltages and High Overclocks compared to an AIO Cooler. As I showed you from numerous benchmarks already. Please show me an Air Cooler that can effectively keep a CPU under 75C @ 5.2GHz @ 1.5v. Please do.

Let's bring up OC3D for a second,

"Finally our 4.6GHz test. Don't be fooled, this is an extreme test and the graph reflects this, you will only see the very best featured in this graph."

Translation, Air Coolers didn't make it into this test because they cannot efficiently dissipate the heat on a 6 core CPU @ 4.6GHz @ 1.45v:



http://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cases_cooling/corsair_h110i_gt_review/8

And I'm trying to ask you to show me an Air Cooler remaining under 75C @ 5.2GHz @ 1.5v. rolleyes.gif

I rather continue throwing around terms like garbage and retarded. When you make ridiculous claims like "water doesn't offer any advantage over air, because they use aluminum radiators" Even after I showed you graphs that show you even the Swiftech H220X doesn't perform that much better than a standard AIO Cooler nor do some of the top Custom Loop kits as you can see clearly from the above graph. Sorry but I think you are running out of arguments, and you are starting to make things up as you go along, but the evidence doesn't change in the slightest.
Edited by BiG StroOnZ - 8/19/15 at 3:46pm
post #46 of 50
The funny thing is I am actually on BiG stroOnZ's side despite him being vehemently not believing my work for random reasons. Liquid coolers are inherently better than air coolers. The problem comes when you have systems that can't take advantage of this. I repeatedly mention why the internal heat transfer in mainstream chips is a bottleneck but apparently that's not enough. Neither is the fact that doing the tests in an open bench but monitoring fan input temps (as opposed to ambient temps) is the way to go. Testing in cases introduces the variable of case airflow which affects air coolers more, but since the review isn't of the case/cooler combo I prefer to take it out of the picture. As to why I do this, because it's fun. I don't have to spend a lot of time or money since I am a PhD student in Chemical Engineering with access to a lot of nice things like a sound lab, a hotbox and the knowledge/training to use them. I also just started that website this year because OCN doesn't like sponsored reviews and it's doing very well, thanks. I have had multiple offers for ads and directly sponsored content but I refused all of them. Finally, if you want to know who trusts my results why don't you talk to Corsair or Cooler Master or EK or HardwareLabs or be quiet! or several of the other companies I have listed. I also do some unpublished testing for a lot of these companies.

Anyway I wanted to say one more thing. People tend to replace CLC fans, not air cooler fans. This is usually more to do with aesthetics though, and not necessarily noise or performance based. Now I will end my rant here and sorry to the OP for being so off topic.
post #47 of 50
I still believe that air coolers are basically close to the current day CLC's in performance all things being equal on chips as they are today. I understand the high FPI rads on the CLC allow you more extreme performance if you add in crazy fast fans like Deltas as they have more surface area to dissipate the heat and the fast fans can force enough air through to make this count. I still believe that if you stick a couple of TY143's for example on one of the best air coolers with suitable airflow you will see performance and noise levels similar to a 240/280 CLC with its own stock fans at max for less money, and is inherently more reliable as well.

I'm not clinging on to the past, I dont own a T-shirt with a dual tower on it. I'm just an average guy who happens to enjoy analyzing data and I'm just sharing what the data I've seen points towards. Give me data I haven't seen and I consider it.

I've tried to show that in the reviews Bigstroonz has posted that test in case the difference is huge. And shown that when people test outside the case it becomes much smaller. When I explained the reasons I believed the differences happened I'm called ignorant and my sources garbage.

I dont think it can be denied that CLC companies are playing on the idea that water is inherently so far beyond air cooling that it is the main factor in performance in order to sell products. That's business, but I think its better to be more informed and aware. I dont believe the difference is as big as people think at the same noise levels.

I've seen a couple of independent forum tests that have shown when people take CLC's (Specifically the Nepton 280l/Phanteks PHTC14PE and NHD14/H100) and an air cooler and normalize the fans that performance is almost the same, that's where my opinion comes from, as well as reading many reviews and their different testing methodologies to try and understand why these differences in results were happening, as I've explained.

On top of this, apparently it doesnt matter whether a rad is copper or aluminium, manufacturers CFM specifications for fans are to be taken as gospel, FPI on a radiator doesnt make any difference, the NHD15 is as loud as a H110GT..... I've wasted to much energy on this already. I enjoy a discussion because often you learn something, but it just becomes more evident that it's true because graph says so, when I've stated my reasons for not believing those graphs and shown reviews that show a different story which are simply rubbished because they don't fit.

Sorry again OP, I dont know much about Toshiba hard drives I shouldn't have got drawn in redface.gif

I wont reply again here smile.gif
post #48 of 50
Thread Starter 
Ok I'm about to buy everything here except Asus Maximus 8 RANGER instead of HERO............


I am checking and double checking and 20x checking for deals, combos, variants, and everything.......

http://pcpartpicker.com/p/7rChpg

I went with deskstar and added a 500gb BX100 crucial..................


SO NERVOUS LOL......... I hope I ordered everything right.......
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ploppytheman View Post

AH FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

on triple checking the skylake chip is out of stock now..... such BS..............


Use this:
http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/processors/intel/

6600K in stock, but 6700K not in stock.

Refresh regularly to see when it is in stock. It will show stock wherever it is sold.


Quote:
Originally Posted by geggeg View Post

The funny thing is I am actually on BiG stroOnZ's side despite him being vehemently not believing my work for random reasons. Liquid coolers are inherently better than air coolers. The problem comes when you have systems that can't take advantage of this. I repeatedly mention why the internal heat transfer in mainstream chips is a bottleneck but apparently that's not enough. Neither is the fact that doing the tests in an open bench but monitoring fan input temps (as opposed to ambient temps) is the way to go. Testing in cases introduces the variable of case airflow which affects air coolers more, but since the review isn't of the case/cooler combo I prefer to take it out of the picture. As to why I do this, because it's fun. I don't have to spend a lot of time or money since I am a PhD student in Chemical Engineering with access to a lot of nice things like a sound lab, a hotbox and the knowledge/training to use them. I also just started that website this year because OCN doesn't like sponsored reviews and it's doing very well, thanks. I have had multiple offers for ads and directly sponsored content but I refused all of them. Finally, if you want to know who trusts my results why don't you talk to Corsair or Cooler Master or EK or HardwareLabs or be quiet! or several of the other companies I have listed. I also do some unpublished testing for a lot of these companies.

Anyway I wanted to say one more thing. People tend to replace CLC fans, not air cooler fans. This is usually more to do with aesthetics though, and not necessarily noise or performance based. Now I will end my rant here and sorry to the OP for being so off topic.

Personally I replaced my cooler's fans with Gentle Typhoons. I would not say that nobody does. I personally do and I have known several people on this website to have done so.

I will commend you then for declining the opportunities for advertising and other revenue.

On that note, a few things I will note on CLCs:
  • Risk of leaks
  • Risk of pump failure
  • The water inside slowly evaporates

Then you've got the risk of the fans dying like on air. Air only has that one point of failure really. That's what I like about it.

The problem is that most CLCs are not well built. They use aluminum, they don't use good quality pumps, and they often don't come with good fans. It's only when you get to kits like the ones made by EK, Swiftech, etc that you get any good quality kits that actually outperform air.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Slink3Slyde View Post

I still believe that air coolers are basically close to the current day CLC's in performance all things being equal on chips as they are today. I understand the high FPI rads on the CLC allow you more extreme performance if you add in crazy fast fans like Deltas as they have more surface area to dissipate the heat and the fast fans can force enough air through to make this count. I still believe that if you stick a couple of TY143's for example on one of the best air coolers with suitable airflow you will see performance and noise levels similar to a 240/280 CLC with its own stock fans at max for less money, and is inherently more reliable as well.

I'm not clinging on to the past, I dont own a T-shirt with a dual tower on it. I'm just an average guy who happens to enjoy analyzing data and I'm just sharing what the data I've seen points towards. Give me data I haven't seen and I consider it.

I've tried to show that in the reviews Bigstroonz has posted that test in case the difference is huge. And shown that when people test outside the case it becomes much smaller. When I explained the reasons I believed the differences happened I'm called ignorant and my sources garbage. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I dont think it can be denied that CLC companies are playing on the idea that water is inherently so far beyond air cooling that it is the main factor in performance in order to sell products. That's business, but I think its better to be more informed and aware. I dont believe the difference is as big as people think at the same noise levels.

I've seen a couple of independent forum tests that have shown when people take CLC's (Specifically the Nepton 280l/Phanteks PHTC14PE and NHD14/H100) and an air cooler and normalize the fans that performance is almost the same, that's where my opinion comes from, as well as reading many reviews and their different testing methodologies to try and understand why these differences in results were happening, as I've explained.

On top of this, apparently it doesnt matter whether a rad is copper or aluminium, manufacturers CFM specifications for fans are to be taken as gospel, FPI on a radiator doesnt make any difference, the NHD15 is as loud as a H110GT..... I've wasted to much energy on this already. I enjoy a discussion because often you learn something, but it just becomes more evident that it's true because graph says so, when I've stated my reasons for not believing those graphs and shown reviews that show a different story which are simply rubbished because they don't fit.

Sorry again OP, I dont know much about Toshiba hard drives I shouldn't have got drawn in redface.gif

I wont reply again here smile.gif


With the exception of loops approaching custom loops, I'd argue that coolers like the D15 are actually better than the 240 and 280s. It's only when you get to things like the H220X that you get better performance. Finally, one problem with CLCs is testing methods - they tend to not mount them in a case. That makes them look better than they are. If you use them as exhaust, then you get warmer CPU temps, but if you use them as intake, they will blow hot air into the case (and you'll get warmer GPU temps).


Again, D15 looks worse, but after adjusting for noise:


With high speed fans, the D15 would actually outperform most CLCs. After adjusting for noise, the current crop of CLCs are actually inferior. The main reason why the CLCs sell is the image of superiority as Slink has noted. They are actually inferior, both in performance and in cost.

It's basically either good full tower, H220X (which is basically a partial custom loop) or go full custom loop.
Edited by CrazyElf - 8/28/15 at 1:21pm
Trooper Typhoon
(20 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
5960X X99A Godlike MSI 1080 Ti Lightning MSI 1080 Ti Lightning 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill Trident Z 32 Gb Samsung 850 Pro Samsung SM843T 960 GB Western Digital Caviar Black 2Tb 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung SV843 960 GB LG WH14NS40 Cryorig R1 Ultimate 9x Gentle Typhoon 1850 rpm on case 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro x64 LG 27UD68 Ducky Legend with Vortex PBT Doubleshot Backlit... EVGA 1300W G2 
CaseMouseAudioOther
Cooler Master Storm Trooper Logitech G502 Proteus Asus Xonar Essence STX Lamptron Fanatic Fan Controller  
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Trooper Typhoon
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RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
G.Skill Trident Z 32 Gb Samsung 850 Pro Samsung SM843T 960 GB Western Digital Caviar Black 2Tb 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Samsung SV843 960 GB LG WH14NS40 Cryorig R1 Ultimate 9x Gentle Typhoon 1850 rpm on case 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Pro x64 LG 27UD68 Ducky Legend with Vortex PBT Doubleshot Backlit... EVGA 1300W G2 
CaseMouseAudioOther
Cooler Master Storm Trooper Logitech G502 Proteus Asus Xonar Essence STX Lamptron Fanatic Fan Controller  
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post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

It's basically either good full tower, H220X (which is basically a partial custom loop) or go full custom loop.

thumb.gif
Another 3570K
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 3570K @ 4.6ghz Gigabyte Z77X-D3H  GB 7970 @ 1100/1500 8GB Corsair V LP 1600mhz  
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Intel 330 series 240GB Noctua NH-D14 1080p 24" + 27" Antec HCG 620W 
CaseAudioAudioAudio
HAF XM Yamaha RX-V373 Accusound 8.8XD 180W Signature 8" 3-way  Auzentech meridian 7.1 2G 
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Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Intel 330 series 240GB Noctua NH-D14 1080p 24" + 27" Antec HCG 620W 
CaseAudioAudioAudio
HAF XM Yamaha RX-V373 Accusound 8.8XD 180W Signature 8" 3-way  Auzentech meridian 7.1 2G 
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