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[DigiTimes] AMD Zen architecture set for 4Q16 - Page 18

post #171 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

We all make mistakes, including AMD tongue.gif!

The only problem is AMD seems to be adept at making not only the same mistakes as in past but also newer ones with more disastrous consequences. It also does not help that their 2 main competitors are dominant, very profitable and extremely aggressive in beating the life out of AMD. biggrin.gif
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post #172 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

The only problem is AMD seems to be adept at making not only the same mistakes as in past but also newer ones with more disastrous consequences. It also does not help that their 2 main competitors are dominant, very profitable and extremely aggressive in beating the life out of AMD. biggrin.gif

Another issue is that AMD innovates, and Intel just takes what they've done, makes it better by throwing cash at it, and sells it. Nvidia is about to do the same thing with HBM, as soon as they can get their hands on it.

IMO, AMD should dominate HBM for as long as they possibly can, or at least charge Nvidia insane amounts to use the stuff. Maybe start mounting HBM to their processors, to get a ton of raw performance.
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post #173 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriestOfSin View Post

Another issue is that AMD innovates, and Intel just takes what they've done, makes it better by throwing cash at it, and sells it. Nvidia is about to do the same thing with HBM, as soon as they can get their hands on it.

IMO, AMD should dominate HBM for as long as they possibly can, or at least charge Nvidia insane amounts to use the stuff. Maybe start mounting HBM to their processors, to get a ton of raw performance.

This is a gross oversimplification.

AMD innovates and Intel just copies?

As for your faith in HBM, it's only a piece to the puzzle. It's not like buying better shoes will automatically make you run a sub 10 second 100m dash.
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post #174 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by zealord View Post

don't forget that at some point high prices are driving customers away.

Increased GPU prices are actually starting to drive me away. I bought the GTX 680 in early 2012 for 500€/$ and deeply regret that I paid so much for a 294mm² midrange card. Thank god I got the 290X for cheap from a friend one year ago.

I was thinking about upgrading in 2015 but looking at the options :


- 980/970/390X are not even worth the upgrade coming from a 290X.
- Fury X. 650$ for a card that has 4GB Vram and overclcoks bad while still being on 28nm in 2015? No thanks the 980 Ti has a much better price/performance ratio and that is saying something if Nvidias high end card is considered good price/perf lol.
- Fury . Same problem as with Fury X. Too expensive for what is has to offer.
- Nano. Niche card for ITX cases. Still way too expensive, gimped by PCI connector pins, overclocks very badly.
- 980 Ti. 700+$ for a cut 28nm card. That feels like paying 700$ for a GTX 570 rolleyes.gif
- Titan X. It's not even worth considering. I could get a 980 Ti Lightning for less.


High prices don't necessarily mean that I won't ever buy hardware again, but the time period between two GPUs/CPUs increases for me. And at some point/price its the final straw and instead of buying new hardware you stick with your old PC/console.

The slow performance progress and high prices actually made me buy a PS4 and a 3DS.


^^I think most of your posts are pretty high quality,... this one speaks to me especially.
    
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post #175 of 241
Intel should keep themselves a little x86 buddy should descretely buy shares of AMD, either way if AMD earns Intel earns.
Quote:

There once was a farmer who grew award-winning corn. Each year he entered his corn in the state fair where it won a blue ribbon.

One year a newspaper reporter interviewed him and learned something interesting about how he grew it. The reporter discovered that the farmer shared his seed corn with his neighbors.

"How can you afford to share your best seed corn with your neighbors when they are entering corn in competition with yours each year?" the reporter asked.

"Why sir," said the farmer, "didn't you know? The wind picks up pollen from the ripening corn and swirls it from field to field. If my neighbors grow inferior corn, cross-pollination will steadily degrade the quality of my corn. If I am to grow good corn, I must help my neighbors grow good corn."

He is very much aware of the connectedness of life. His corn cannot improve unless his neighbor's corn also improves.

So it is with our lives. Those who choose to live in peace must help their neighbors to live in peace. Those who choose to live well must help others to live well, for the value of a life is measured by the lives it touches. And those who choose to be happy must help others to find happiness, for the welfare of each is bound up with the welfare of all.

Even if AMD one day beats Intel in it's game, unlikely. It wouldn't be impossible for Intel to just invest more of it's massive amounts of money to produce something competitive again.
Edited by SpeedyVT - 9/14/15 at 6:04am
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post #176 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Intel should keep themselves a little x86 buddy should descretely buy shares of AMD, either way if AMD earns Intel earns.
Even if AMD one day beats Intel in it's game, unlikely. It wouldn't be impossible for Intel to just invest more of it's massive amounts of money to produce something competitive again.


AMD did beat Intel in the past and the budget difference existed back then as well. The real FX days made Intel what it is today in terms of architecture development. E6600 was the chip that put AMD onto the path it is now today. The same path many accept by using Bullwinkle excuses. If Zen comes out next year and butchers every INTEL chip like Conroe did, amd stock will jump, Intel stock will plummet and all of a sudden cash will flow in AMD's pockets. Likewise with their gpu cards. Take a card that beats NVIDIA at all the price points, fix your drivers, and guess what? Money will flow even more. Your whole R&D argument will not fly at this point and all will sing ...'see we told you so, the underdog did it, and they are so much better because they did it with less money' thumb.gif!
 
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post #177 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

AMD did beat Intel in the past and the budget difference existed back then as well. The real FX days made Intel what it is today in terms of architecture development. E6600 was the chip that put AMD onto the path it is now today. The same path many accept by using Bullwinkle excuses. If Zen comes out next year and butchers every INTEL chip like Conroe did, amd stock will jump, Intel stock will plummet and all of a sudden cash will flow in AMD's pockets. Likewise with their gpu cards. Take a card that beats NVIDIA at all the price points, fix your drivers, and guess what? Money will flow even more. Your whole R&D argument will not fly at this point and all will sing ...'see we told you so, the underdog did it, and they are so much better because they did it with less money' thumb.gif!

I think the problem is that AMD is going to need much more than a single release of quality hardware. Their market presence has literally dwindled over the last decade in both of their largest market bases and to believe that they can release one superior product and change the mind of such a large percentage of consumers isn't realistic. AMD needs to be competitive in their markets for at the minimum a year before they will even begin to start seeing a shift in consumer adoption. They are repeatedly being outclassed by their competition while they struggle to find a foothold.
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post #178 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

AMD did beat Intel in the past and the budget difference existed back then as well. The real FX days made Intel what it is today in terms of architecture development. E6600 was the chip that put AMD onto the path it is now today. The same path many accept by using Bullwinkle excuses. If Zen comes out next year and butchers every INTEL chip like Conroe did, amd stock will jump, Intel stock will plummet and all of a sudden cash will flow in AMD's pockets. Likewise with their gpu cards. Take a card that beats NVIDIA at all the price points, fix your drivers, and guess what? Money will flow even more. Your whole R&D argument will not fly at this point and all will sing ...'see we told you so, the underdog did it, and they are so much better because they did it with less money' thumb.gif!

There have been plenty of cards from AMD that beat Nvidia let alone at a lesser price. The money still never flows their way like it does for Nvidia. The driver issues so often talked about are the real issue, and I mean it in a sense where people still seem to think that there are truly these major issues that make AMD cards crap and unusable. The public stigma and poor mindset is the issue, not the drivers. And yes, both camps to this day will still have some driver issues, but it is par for the course.

On the cpu front, the reality is much different than it was over a decade ago, when those FX's were king. We are hitting a point where cpu development is harder than ever, and costlier than ever. Outside factors such as lack of competition are always blamed for the lackluster improvements we get, but many are not taking into account the challenges of going to smaller and smaller process nodes. Intel has struggled at this and have their own fabs as well. Imagine how costly this is for AMD with their current budget and no fab?

Unfortunately if you will remember, the Pentium 4 while being inferior on all fronts at the time still greatly outsold the AMD chips. Again, the general mindset. AMD to this day is still an unknown and a risk to general joe public. I'd like for that not to be true but it is and will remain that way I fear until AMD is gone. Obviously shady business tactics from Intel were at play then but that is another topic for another time and quite frankly an overly beaten dead horse.
Edited by SoloCamo - 9/14/15 at 6:49am
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post #179 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloCamo View Post

There have been plenty of cards from AMD that beat Nvidia let alone at a lesser price. The money still never flows their way like it does for Nvidia. The driver issues so often talked about are the real issue, and I mean it in a sense where people still seem to think that there are truly these major issues that make AMD cards crap and unusable. The public stigma and poor mindset is the issue, not the drivers. And yes, both camps to this day will still have some driver issues, but it is par for the course.

On the cpu front, the reality is much different than it was over a decade ago, when those FX's were king. We are hitting a point where cpu development is harder than ever, and costlier than ever. Outside factors such as lack of competition are always blamed for the lackluster improvements we get, but many are not taking into account the challenges of going to smaller and smaller process nodes. Intel has struggled at this and have their own fabs as well. Imagine how costly this is for AMD with their current budget and no fab?

Unfortunately if you will remember, the Pentium 4 while being inferior on all fronts at the time still greatly outsold the AMD chips. Again, the general mindset. AMD to this day is still an unknown and a risk to general joe public. I'd like for that not to be true but it is and will remain that way I fear until AMD is gone. Obviously shady business tactics from Intel were at play then but that is another topic for another time and quite frankly an overly beaten dead horse.

You're absolutely right. Intel is looking into other avenues to exploit x86 with HSA and they're taking thier sweet time, probably waiting for AMD to die so HSA adoption only benefits them and not AMD.
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post #180 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpeedyVT View Post

Intel should keep themselves a little x86 buddy should descretely buy shares of AMD, either way if AMD earns Intel earns.
Even if AMD one day beats Intel in it's game, unlikely. It wouldn't be impossible for Intel to just invest more of it's massive amounts of money to produce something competitive again.
And if that takes too long they could always remind companies not to buy AMD chips. With remind I mean pay them not to and give contra revenue discounts for every chip they buy from Intel.

Of course they are already doing this a tiny bit but once they feel AMD has something competitive they will certainly step up their game. (again...)


AMD hasn't been competitive for years somewhat due to Intel's actions in the past and yet there is no one stepping in. While we quite clearly have a monopoly going on here. Remember guys if the government is coming after you just pay some people to lobby for you it works everywhere. Just a few million US in lobbying can save you billions what a great investment!
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