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[DigiTimes] AMD Zen architecture set for 4Q16 - Page 20

post #191 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2010rig View Post

@Darkstalker420 my statement was sarcasm, because it was AMD's founder who said those words...

Other than sarcasm what else have you contributed here ? I dare you to do something useful on this forum other than your usual trolling disguised as sarcasm. As for the statement "Real men have fabs" Jerry Sanders did fight long and hard against Intel both on the market and in the courts and kept the fabs running at AMD. But Jerry gave it all away by choosing that moron Hector Ruiz as his successor, who in turn systematically destroyed AMD. Sadly Jerry indirectly (through his choice of Hector Ruiz) destroyed the company he co-founded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaker View Post

I can't wait for the benchmarks and the tears tongue.gif. New ZEN vs polished 14nm Intel chips. My shop will be ready to accommodate y'all biggrin.gif.

Anybody who expects miracles from Zen is going to be very disappointed. Zen will only reduce the gap against Intel's Skylake. By how much remains to be seen. Intel has a very big architectural lead and a process node lead and together the lead is unsurmountable. If AMD Zen can hit Haswell IPC and 4.5 Ghz max clocks that would be their greatest achievement in over a decade. If they hit Sandy IPC and 4.5 Ghz max clocks then its still decent considering how bad they are now. Anything lower and its a disaster.
Edited by raghu78 - 9/23/15 at 4:47am
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post #192 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

Other than sarcasm what else have you contributed here ? I dare you to do something useful on this forum other than your usual trolling disguised as sarcasm. As for the statement "Real men have fabs" Jerry Sanders did fight long and hard against Intel both on the market and in the courts and kept the fabs running at AMD. But Jerry gave it all away by choosing that moron Hector Ruiz as his successor, who in turn systematically destroyed AMD. Sadly Jerry indirectly (through his choice of Hector Ruiz) destroyed the company he co-founded.

Who cares? Q4 2016 ... OVER a year away, is just for samples. AMD has said that they really won't start selling Zen to the public in any real number until Q1 2017.

What more do you really think a thread on OCN will be about other than quips, sarcasm, and silly stuff when the damn processor is 12 to 15 months away?
post #193 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Who cares? Q4 2016 ... OVER a year away, is just for samples. AMD has said that they really won't start selling Zen to the public in any real number until Q1 2017.

What more do you really think a thread on OCN will be about other than quips, sarcasm, and silly stuff when the damn processor is 12 to 15 months away?

The way AMD are faring now I doubt we will even see Zen launched by AMD. AMD could very well run out of cash and be bought out and Zen might be launched by a new company. mad.gif

The next 2 quarters will give a sign of whether AMD will run out of cash. If the bleeding does not reduce drastically then a complete buyout or atleast cash infusion by private equity or a company like Microsoft needs to happen.
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post #194 of 241
I'm mostly eager to see something new from AMD in the server market since I planned to build my next system about 2017 with entirely server hardware (minus the GPU and maybe PSU)
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post #195 of 241
lachen.gif at the "4GHz" speculations.

The manufacturing process is designed and optimized for <2.1GHz (LPE) and <2.4GHz (LPP) Fmax, which is usually the upper frequency range of low-power ARM SoCs and some specialized ASICs. Unless GlobalFoundries has completely revamped the design, then the absolute limits of the process are most likely in the 3GHz range. So far the 14nm LPP design has reached 2.4GHz Fmax on ARM Cortex A9 design, which reached 3.0GHz Fmax with on ST 28nm FD-SOI process.

This is exactly what is to be expected from a low power mobile process. AMD has never used a low power targeted manufacturing process for any of their CPU / APU / SoC product other than the 14h / 16h family (Felid cores; Bobcat, Jaguar, Puma) products. Jaguar based designs on TSMC 28nm HPL process reached 2.2GHz* while Puma based designs on GlobalFoundries 28nm SLP had ceiling of 2.5GHz* Keep in mind that despite the 16h family has a rather "high" IPC (on AMD standards), the design itself does not set the Fmax ceiling directly. Neither the depth of the pipeline or the cache latencies are extremely shallow or low in 16h family designs, which could directly explain the low Fmax.

* Production / shipping figures

If the 14nm LPP meets or even exceeds it´s expectations, AMD might be able to clock their designs made on this process up to 3GHz.
At this point the process however operates so far out of it´s optimal Fmax range, that it´s power efficiency is long gone.
For this reason I expect anything higher than >=3GHz to be available during power gated boost only, especially if the thing is supposed to have 8 native cores. Also for the sake of power consumption, I don´t think a 8C/16T (alleged) CPU could anyway fit in 95W or even 125W TDP margin if it would operate at >3GHz. I don´t think even the upcoming Skylake-E would fit in the <100W TDP window in 8C/16T configuration when running at >3GHz.

Just my thoughts wink.gif

Stay calm and wait biggrin.gif
Edited by The Stilt - 9/23/15 at 6:10am
post #196 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyrichie View Post

if zen releases like that i think we can kiss amd good bye, my bet is consumer chip being 12 cores, 24 threads, turbo 4ghz
Quote:
Originally Posted by happyrichie View Post


I will repeat the same future Zen CPU,biggrin.gif because you obviously do not know what kind of CPU performance this cpu can offer.wink.gif

- 8 Cores/16 Threads, 3.3ghz/SB IPC maximum stock cpu frequency.Hm slow cpu compared to what, maybe Desktop Skylake Intel 4 or 6 Core CPU?
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post #197 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateZ View Post

I'm going to leave these pictures here. Just don't understand how you people say A is X% faster than B, even for an unreleased architecture. At-least try to back your statement with a source. This post is not intended for a specific person. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


Also if you know what you doing this will help.

The selection of benchmarks is problematic as they are mostly benefiting from SIMD and FPU improvements and are not representative of all work loads.

I used a full multi-bench mean from as many benchmarks as I could find across every major generation of Intel CPUs after the original Core (so, Penryn onward).

The benchmark mean results:
Code:
Penryn:       100%
Nehalem:      109%
Sandy Bridge: 119%
Ivy Bridge:   126%
Haswell:      137%
Skylake:      150%


From the best collection I can get of benchmarks that compares these CPUs and Excavator, it seems that Penryn and Excavator have very similar IPC, Excavator being very slightly faster on average per clock, but we can treat Penryn as Excavator.

It is entirely conceivable that AMD's 40% boost is distributed similarly to Intel's focus areas, with some areas seeing a near doubling in performance, and other areas remaining effectively stagnant - if not, indeed, regressing. It would be unusual, in fact, to expect an even distribution of performance increases.

Zen should be, on average, over 60% faster than Piledriver, partly because the Bulldozer FPU has seen effectively no meaningful improvements all the way up to, and including, Excavator. AMD put all their effort behind Zen. A very smart move, but one that guaranteed that their margins would be shrinking along with their market share.

In the end, it should come down to clock speed. If they can hit 4GHz, then they have a chance to gain some higher end business and win mind share. If they can only hit 3.5GHz, but can provide 8 cores at that speed, then they will have a definite niche product, provided they don't overcharge.

If all they do is match Sandy Bridge IPC, then they need to provide a six core CPU at the same price as Intel's i7s. That is actually a VERY good improvement for AMD since their 8 core CPUs are unable to compete in that arena.

If they reach Haswell levels, then they can release direct competitors to Skylake, using clocks or SMT to make up the difference between same-core-count CPUs (SMT 3.2GHz Zen vs an 3.5GHz Skylake i5, for example, would be a perfectly fair trade in that case).

Either way, we will have AMD competing in a space it hasn't been in at all for years. The only ways Zen will be a failure is if it is below Sandy Bridge IPC and can't make up for it in clocks, only has Sand Bridge IPC but can't hit 3.5GHz, or can't reach 3.2GHz with Haswell IPC. Anything better and they can make up for Intel's lead by using 6/8-cores or SMT at a lower price, or any combination thereof and enter into higher price segments with desirable products.

In fact, I'm at the point I don't need any more IPC, I need more cores.. but I can't give up any IPC, either. An eight core Zen-based CPU with Sandy Bridge+ IPC at 3.8~4.2GHz (overclocked) will be a fairly easy buy for me.
post #198 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by raghu78 View Post

Other than sarcasm what else have you contributed here ? I dare you to do something useful on this forum other than your usual trolling disguised as sarcasm. As for the statement "Real men have fabs" Jerry Sanders did fight long and hard against Intel both on the market and in the courts and kept the fabs running at AMD. But Jerry gave it all away by choosing that moron Hector Ruiz as his successor, who in turn systematically destroyed AMD. Sadly Jerry indirectly (through his choice of Hector Ruiz) destroyed the company he co-founded.
Anybody who expects miracles from Zen is going to be very disappointed. Zen will only reduce the gap against Intel's Skylake. By how much remains to be seen. Intel has a very big architectural lead and a process node lead and together the lead is unsurmountable. If AMD Zen can hit Haswell IPC and 4.5 Ghz max clocks that would be their greatest achievement in over a decade. If they hit Sandy IPC and 4.5 Ghz max clocks then its still decent considering how bad they are now. Anything lower and its a disaster.
*The real men have fabs comment was in reference to buying the dresden fab, they couldnt afford it, didnt really need it but worst of all it voided the x86 agreement which in turn led to intel settling out of court with a measly $1-2b, really amd were due around 20b$ from that case. Imagine they'd got that 20b$, I doubt things would be as bad.
(*from what I've read, feel free to correct!)
post #199 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateZ View Post

I'm going to leave these pictures here. Just don't understand how you people say A is X% faster than B, even for an unreleased architecture. At-least try to back your statement with a source. This post is not intended for a specific person.





Also if you know what you doing this will help.

There are some bad benches for x264 out there (the encoder that handbrake uses) especially since many people use outdated versions - there's even an "x264 benchmark 5.0" that many uninformed people use which has an encoder version from ~2011 without any of the optimizations that have come since, including those specifically for newer CPU's and instruction sets. That makes performance seem flatter than it actually is.

I don't always link source because i try to avoid forming opinions based on one test alone (especially if it's not me who is doing it) but there's one here:
Xkr245u.png

35-40% gain from SB to Skylake as seen in several other benches with up-to-date encoders and tests that will stress the CPU (high resolutions and/or slow presets; the stuff that generally takes longer to encode anyway that CPU performance matters more for)
Edited by Cyro999 - 9/23/15 at 10:35am
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post #200 of 241
Quote:
Originally Posted by 47 Knucklehead View Post

Who cares? Q4 2016 ... OVER a year away, is just for samples. AMD has said that they really won't start selling Zen to the public in any real number until Q1 2017.

What more do you really think a thread on OCN will be about other than quips, sarcasm, and silly stuff when the damn processor is 12 to 15 months away?

I won't reply directly to people on my blocked list...

It's funny to me that people around here whine about AMD not having their own fab, when they're the ones that chose to get rid of their fabs! Not only that, but they have paid so much in penalties to Glofo, that have probably matched what they sold the fabs for. It's pathetic.

So, the next time someone whines about Intel having a fab advantage, at least get all your facts straight before hand http://www.overclock.net/t/1573179/digitimes-amd-zen-architecture-set-for-4q16/50_50#post_24402148
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