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Serial VS Parallel 9.6LPM - Page 14

post #131 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

interesting maybe you could take a look at the flow ranges, and explain to me how that rotameter flow meter is going to represent 75LPM, on its 20 LPM display. biggrin.gif

LOL, That one doesn't, there is a bunch models with different ranges.

"In physics and engineering, mass flow rate is the mass of a substance which passes per unit of time. Its unit is kilogram per second in SI units, and slug per second or pound per second in US customary units."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate

The Velocity of a water cooling loop will change a lot, the velocity through a waterblock will be much more than through a tube. This does not change the flow rate of the system.
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post #132 of 243
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

LOL, That one doesn't, there is a bunch models with different ranges.

"In physics and engineering, mass flow rate is the mass of a substance which passes per unit of time. Its unit is kilogram per second in SI units, and slug per second or pound per second in US customary units."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_flow_rate

The Velocity of a water cooling loop will change a lot, the velocity through a waterblock will be much more than through a tube. This does not change the flow rate of the system.

I sorry that I do not know how to explain it to you, but you will see for your self what happens when I show the results of my experiment, until then I am sorry that I can not explain it a manner for with you will understand.
@Cyber Locc
LOL, That one doesn't, there is a bunch models with different ranges.

that is not what it is saying, it is saying that the F-550 model can understand all of those different flow rate ranges.
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-550-machined-acrylic-block-variable-area-flow-meter/
and in my OP he math supports that fact

look at the flow range section for there other products, the chart changes for each one.
post #133 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

I sorry that I do not know how to explain it to you, but you will see for your self what happens when I show the results of my experiment, until then I am sorry that I can not explain it a manner for with you will understand.
@Cyber Locc
LOL, That one doesn't, there is a bunch models with different ranges.

that is not what it is saying, it is saying that the F-550 model can understand all of those different flow rate ranges.
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-550-machined-acrylic-block-variable-area-flow-meter/
and in my OP he math supports that fact

look at the flow range section for there other products, the chart changes for each one.

That is not what it is saying F550 is a range, click the PDF dude.

"Rule number one: Never size the meter to the pipe. Always size it to the flow rates.

Rule number two: Refer back to rule number one. "

https://blogs.siemens.com/measuringsuccess/stories/842/

You are out of your depth my man.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 1/31/16 at 9:16pm
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post #134 of 243
I say forget about trying to prove some obscure quirk you think you have discovered and just simplify what you are thinking about.

Water is incompressible, so an easy way to imagine the inner working of a loop is to keep in mind that flow rate is constant through the whole loop, it doesn't vary in any part of the loop, the only thing that varies is velocity, ie less restriction=lower velocity, higher restriction=higher velocity, velocity increases in a restricted component to compensate for the restricted size of the path of flow to maintain the same total volume of flow, the volume of flow will be reduced in the whole loop with more restrictive components, not just in the restrictive component itself.

Saying that a varying velocity will change the accuracy of the flow rate measurement implies that velocity is constant and flow varies in your test loop, but that isn't the case unless you have a loop with no changes in restriction, ie basically impossible, volume flow rate is constant, and velocity varies, but, higher velocity implies a more restrictive loop, so actual flow rate will be lower than with a less restrictive loop, this is all you will prove by changing your tubing size, ie the largest tubing size has the least restriction so your flow rate will be higher than with the smallest tubing size, but as long as the flow rate is within the measurable range of the flow meter, the recorded result will be accurate, you are trying to skew the results by measuring outside its accurate range (I think, I can't really grasp what you are trying to prove, other than seemingly rigging an experiment to display the "result" that you want)

I still don't think you will achieve your desired result as the smallest end of the taper inside the rotameter or the inlet/outlet or the valve will be your highest restriction point regardless of whether you use larger or smaller tubing (Jak stated the ID of his rotameter on the smaller end of the taper is about 8mm, so that is smaller than the ID of any 1/2" barbs/compression fittings, so in a loop that contains nothing other than barbs, rotameter, tubing and pump, you can't escape the fact that the rotameter itself is the most restrictive component, and it isn't really restrictive at all. Varying tube size in order to "prove" that velocity will skew the results is pointless when the point of highest velocity in the loop should be in the small tapered end (or the inlet barb or the valve) of the rotameter itself.

I am curious though, you say you will maintain the same "flow rate" with all tubing sizes, now you are trying to prove that the rotameter is innaccurate with differing tubing size, so how are you maintaining the same flow rate? If you just run your pump at full speed your flow rates will vary across the tubing sizes due to differing restriction, but if you don't trust the rotameter to measure your flow rate accurately, that leads me to believe that you are relying on an inferior flow meter (Jak mentioned you had a koolance flow meter?) now these types of flow meters are innaccurate with different tubing/barb ID sizes as they do lose accuracy due to differing tubing/fitting sizes as velocity does change the way the impeller works (the calculation for rpm to flow rate is done by the conversion of impulses to a calculated flow rate. I have a Aquacomputer G1/4" high flow flow meter and it has been said that it's standard calculation of impulses/s is wrong for the larger tubing/fitting sizes that are typically in use these days, so I have to drop it from 169ips to about 158ips (based on martins testing) this is because aquacomputer favors smaller ID tubing and fittings than most people use these days, so yes in this case, velocity will change the accuracy of a flow meter if using impulses per second, however the king instrument rotameter doesn't work that way and as such is not influenced by velocity in the way that cheaper impeller based flow meters are, ie if you are testing all tubing sizes with the same flow rate the velocity inside the rotameter will not change regardless of the tubing size. So, if you are trying to maintain a set flow rate based on an impeller style flow meter, or even an uncalibrated MPS flow meter, then you have invalid results.

The only way for you to "prove" anything with this "test" of yours is to actually knowingly skew the results, ie trying to measure outside accurate ranges of equipment or purposefully varying the flow rate to show the results you want to show. I will say that I don't believe you will be able to take the rotameter outside of its accurate range just by varying the tubing size, this slightly reduces restriction which will increase or decrease the flow rate and varies the velocity through the tubing itself which will only increase or decrease the velocity in the tubing, any variation of flow or velocity inside the rotameter will simply be a function of the loops flow rate, which if you say you will maintain the same flow with all tubing sizes means there will be no change whatsoever as you are manipulating the loop to compensate for higher or lower restriction to maintain the desired flow rate. So you will in effect prove exactly what you are trying to disprove.
Edited by LiamG6 - 2/1/16 at 3:33pm
post #135 of 243
Thread Starter 
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-400n-machined-acrylic-tube-flowmeter/#tab-id-3
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-410n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-430n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-550-machined-acrylic-block-variable-area-flow-meter/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

That is not what it is saying F550 is a range, click the PDF dude.

"Rule number one: Never size the meter to the pipe. Always size it to the flow rates.

Rule number two: Refer back to rule number one. "

https://blogs.siemens.com/measuringsuccess/stories/842/

You are out of your depth my man.

please fallow instructions, as I stated if you had bothered to look at the chart for the flow rate ranges, for each of the products they offer the flow rate chart changes accordingly for the model listed.

you are looking at engineering charts that you apparently do not understand.
post #136 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

I say forget about trying to prove some obscure quirk you think you have discovered and just simplify what you are thinking about.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Water is incompressible, so an easy way to imagine the inner working of a loop is to keep in mind that flow rate is constant through the whole loop, it doesn't vary in any part of the loop, the only thing that varies is velocity, ie less restriction=lower velocity, higher restriction=higher velocity, velocity increases in a restricted component to compensate for the restricted volume to maintain the same total volume of flow, the volume of flow will be reduced in the whole loop with more restrictive components, not just in the restrictive component itself.

Saying that a varying velocity will change the accuracy of the flow rate measurement implies that velocity is constant and flow varies in your test loop, but that isn't the case unless you have a loop with no changes in restriction, ie basically impossible, volume flow rate is constant, and velocity varies, but, higher velocity implies a more restrictive loop, so actual flow rate will be lower than with a less restrictive loop, this is all you will prove by changing your tubing size, ie the largest tubing size has the least restriction so your flow rate will be higher than with the smallest tubing size, but as long as the flow rate is within the measurable range of the flow meter, the recorded result will be accurate, you are trying to skew the results by measuring outside its accurate range (I think, I can't really grasp what you are trying to prove, other than seemingly rigging an experiment to display the "result" that you want)

I still don't think you will achieve your desired result as the smallest end of the taper inside the rotameter or the inlet/outlet or the valve will be your highest restriction point regardless of whether you use larger or smaller tubing (Jak stated the ID of his rotameter on the smaller end of the taper is about 8mm, so that is smaller than the ID of any 1/2" barbs/compression fittings, so in a loop that contains nothing other than barbs, rotameter, tubing and pump, you can't escape the fact that the rotameter itself is the most restrictive component, and it isn't really restrictive at all. Varying tube size in order to "prove" that velocity will skew the results is pointless when the point of highest velocity in the loop should be in the small tapered end (or the inlet barb or the valve) of the rotameter itself.

I am curious though, you say you will maintain the same "flow rate" with all tubing sizes, now you are trying to prove that the rotameter is innaccurate with differing tubing size, so how are you maintaining the same flow rate? If you just run your pump at full speed your flow rates will vary across the tubing sizes due to differing restriction, but if you don't trust the rotameter to measure your flow rate accurately, that leads me to believe that you are relying on an inferior flow meter (Jak mentioned you had a koolance flow meter?) now these types of flow meters are innaccurate with different tubing/barb ID sizes as they do lose accuracy due to differing tubing/fitting sizes as velocity does change the way the impeller works (the calculation for rpm to flow rate is done by the conversion of impulses to a calculated flow rate. I have a Aquacomputer G1/4" high flow flow meter and it has been said that it's standard calculation of impulses/s is wrong for the larger tubing/fitting sizes that are typically in use these days, so I have to drop it from 169ips to about 158ips (based on martins testing) this is because aquacomputer favors smaller ID tubing and fittings than most people use these days, so yes in this case, velocity will change the accuracy of a flow meter if using impulses per second, however the king instrument rotameter doesn't work that way and as such is not influenced by velocity in the way that cheaper impeller based flow meters are. So, if you are trying to maintain a set flow rate based on an impeller style flow meter, or even an uncalibrated MPS flow meter, then you have invalid results.

The only way for you to "prove" anything with this "test" of yours is to actually knowingly skew the results, ie trying to measure outside accurate ranges of equipment or purposefully varying the flow rate to show the results you want to show. I will say that I don't believe you will be able to take the rotameter outside of its accurate range just by varying the tubing size, this slightly reduces restriction which will increase or decrease the flow rate and varies the velocity through the tubing itself which will only increase or decrease the velocity in the tubing, any variation of flow or velocity inside the rotameter will simply be a function of the loops flow rate, which if you say you will maintain the same flow with all tubing sizes means there will be no change whatsoever as you are manipulating the loop to compensate for higher or lower restriction to maintain the desired flow rate. So you will in effect prove exactly what you are trying to disprove.

I dont think he is going to prove anything at all because I dont think we will ever see any test results tongue.gif
That was a very detailed and thorough explanation of what we have been trying to tell him but I still dont think he will get it lol, anyway you put a lot of time and knowledge in that so +Rep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-400n-machined-acrylic-tube-flowmeter/#tab-id-3
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-410n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-430n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-550-machined-acrylic-block-variable-area-flow-meter/
please fallow instructions, as I stated if you had bothered to look at the chart for the flow rate ranges, for each of the products they offer the flow rate chart changes accordingly for the model listed.

you are looking at engineering charts that you apparently do not understand.

Hmm didn't know that instruction manuals are know "Engineering charts" that I do not understand. What you are not getting my friend is it is you that DOES NOT UNDERSTAND!

1 other rule for you, all these crazy theories ect are like Jak said "Not benefiting this forum". Since you have made this post you have done nothing but say that all experts in are field are wrong and you are right. You have backed this up with poor testing methods and inaccurate results.

well I am here to tell you this isn't Tomskiddyplayhouse.com, This is Overclock.net, we deal in facts. All you have been doing is arguing with people more knowledgeable than you and THREATENING Us with "TEST RESULTS". results that we have yet to see. I seen this very thing posted on other forums as well that you are on. The same exact thing happened, you put your very bad tests up and were told they were bad. You then argued and threatened results, the results that never came.

I told you I want to see what happens with your theory I think it is wrong but I was more than happy to hear it out and see some results. However you dont want to show results, you just want to go on with your crazy talk and threats of results as you sit back and insulting every Expert this community has.
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post #137 of 243
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

I dont think he is going to prove anything at all because I dont think we will ever see any test results tongue.gif
That was a very detailed and thorough explanation of what we have been trying to tell him but I still dont think he will get it lol, anyway you put a lot of time and knowledge in that so +Rep.

@toolmaker03 1 other rule for you, all these crazy theories ect are like Jak said "Not benefiting this forum". Since you have made this post you have done nothing but say that all experts in are field are wrong and you are right. You have backed this up with poor testing methods and inaccurate results.

well I am here to tell you this isn't Tomskiddyplayhouse.com This is Overclock.net, we deal in facts so either put up or shut up. All you have been doing is arguing with people more knowledgeable than you and THREATENING Us with "TEST RESULTS". results that we have yet to see. I seen this very thing posted on other forums as well that you are on. The same exact thing happened, you put your very bad tests up and were told they were bad. You then argued and threatened results, the results that never came.

I told you I want to see what happens with your theory I think it is wrong but I was more than happy to hear it out and see some results. However you dont want to show results, you just want to go on with your crazy talk and threats of results as you sit back and insulting every Expert this community has. It is extremely frustrating and sad, I cannot believe this thread has not been locked.

I am going to sit back and wait for these "results" but I will not be posting in this thread ever again.

wow, yea well I am building it, and that takes time.
post #138 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-400n-machined-acrylic-tube-flowmeter/#tab-id-3
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-410n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-430n-machined-acrylic-tube/
http://blue-white.com/blue-white-products/f-550-machined-acrylic-block-variable-area-flow-meter/
please fallow instructions, as I stated if you had bothered to look at the chart for the flow rate ranges, for each of the products they offer the flow rate chart changes accordingly for the model listed.

you are looking at engineering charts that you apparently do not understand.

you linked all these different meters and said they have different flow ranges, of course they do, they are different models designed for different flow ranges, this is not because of the differing size of the inlet/outlet or the tubing and fittings that can be used with them but because of the different dimensions of the tapered cylinder inside them and the different weight of the float.
post #139 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

wow, yea well I am building it, and that takes time, so deal with it.

Also here you go from the PDF of the 550 series here is the models, each with there own flow rate ranges. F-55250L F-55375L F-55376L F-55500L F-55750L F-55005L F-55010L F-55015L F-55200L

Here we will go with the one you listed as its graph is smaller and easier to list.

Model -- GPM
F-40750LN-12 -- 1 to 10
F-40750LN-16 -- 1 to 10
F-41017LN-12 -- 1 to 17
F-41017LN-16 -- 1 to 17
F-41000LN-12 -- 2 to 20
F-41000LN-16 -- 2 to 20

And no it doesn't take time to hook up some flow meters to a pump and a reservoir I could do that in 10 mins, It takes time to try to rig it to say what you want it to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiamG6 View Post

you linked all these different meters and said they have different flow ranges, of course they do, they are different models designed for different flow ranges, this is not because of the differing size of the inlet/outlet or the tubing and fittings that can be used with them but because of the different dimensions of the tapered cylinder inside them and the different weight of the float.

No he is saying that the meters have different flow ranges listed on there product page, they do because those arent models those are ranges. There is individual models in each range, but he cant even understand that and instead says that I am reading engineering graphs that I dont understand.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 1/31/16 at 10:00pm
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post #140 of 243
Look, I know nothing about these flow meters, I don't own one, I've never seen one in use, but I'm able to grasp the concept of how they work quite easily and can see how it is an almost infallibly accurate way of measuring flow rate. These rotameters are specifically created for measuring flow rates in a specific range and with a specific substance. The weight of the float inside the rotameter and the taper of the cylinder is specifically chosen to provide an accurate reading of flow rates with a fluid that has a specific gravity of 1, think of specific gravity as "flotation" ie a fluid with a specific gravity of 1 flowing at 1gpm will be able to float the weight exactly to the 1gpm marker within the tapered cylinder. If you wanted to go outside the bounds of accuracy of the rotameter you can either use it outside it specified accurate range or you can measure the flow rate of a fluid which has a specific gravity that is not 1, ie if you wanted to measure the flow rate of salt water you would need a meter that is calibrated for a different specific gravity, and different amounts of salt in the water will change its specific gravity, this can be calculated by weighing the water though, ie higher salt content=heavier water=higher specific gravity (or in laymans terms, more flotation at a given flow rate than fluid with a specific gravity of 1). This can be demonstrated by going to the dead sea and floating on your back, quite easy to do compared to floating on your back in fresh water, this is a function of the waters specific gravity and will influence how much the water "pushes" the float up the tapered cylinder.

Aside from using it to measure outside its accurate range or measuring a fluid that doesn't have a specific gravity of 1 I can't really see how you are going to prove that the instrument is incorrect.
Edited by LiamG6 - 1/31/16 at 10:13pm
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