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Serial VS Parallel 9.6LPM - Page 19

post #181 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

Where is the shaft on a laing pump then exactly?
In laing pumps the impeller is literally party of the motor, the stator. As such it means the motor windings are very close the actual impeller part of the pump.

Other more traditional designs have an impeller mounted on a drive shaft. The motor is completely separate and the fluid does not come near it.

I don't see what is so hard to follow.


I just told you the shaft acts as a heatsink the shaft on a laing is the bearing as we call it. It is shaft, in reality. In a larger motor it does not dump as much heat as our small pumps do. However heat is still dumped into the water, however there massive flow rate also plays a part in relieving this heat as well.

"The motor is completely separate and the fluid does not come near it. " I explained this above the water does not come in contact with the motor itself you are correct. However the shaft carrys the heat like a heatsink does and that touches the water. When a motor spins a shaft the energy from the motor is pushed into the shaft.

You dont have to take my word for it I just gave you martins lol. Hit up Wikipedia on Centrifugal pumps it will say the same exact thing.

Dont get me wrong I understand what you are saying and why you think it isn't dumping heat into the loop, however it is that is a fact.

Pic of D5 shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwamotto Tetsuz View Post

This would mean that the only heat genration is the moving parts inside the pump.

OKAY Again dont take my word for it Here is martins I kinda wrote a jist of it earlier but since you obviously do not listen here it is again.

Martin -

"The energy of the pump consumption leaves in three forms.

The biggest is motor heat energy lost into the water, which is generally somewhere between 80-90%, small pumping motors are just very inefficient.

The second is in the form of water horspower, you can covert the energy of water flow rate and pressure into wattage. This energy leaves the pump and is then lost in the restriction of the system. Most people don't think about this, but you do actually gain heat by the restrictions. Pressure drop in a waterblock for example is energy lost. That lost energy is transmitted into heat energy, most of which is absorbed by the water in the loop.

The third is motor heat lost in the air from the pump motor casing. If you've felt the bottom of a DDC pump, you know what that is. Some pumps loose more heat in the air than others and it depends on the pump motor design and how the motor does or doesn't transfer heat into the fluids. It likely also depends on how much air movement occurs around the pump.

But yes, all that energy goes somewhere, unfortunately most of it ends up getting watercooled... "

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?201800-Pump-Heat-Dump Post #25

So dont argue with me about it, go argue with one of our community's most respected Experts in our hobby.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/1/16 at 11:22pm
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post #182 of 243
No, a pump that uses 40w can't produce more than 40w of heat. That would violate thermodynamics.

In Martin's testing he is just using maths to calculate the watts used vs actual work done which leaves a reminder as heat. He is not actually measuring how much of that heat goes into the fluid vs the air.
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post #183 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

No, a pump that uses 40w can't produce more than 40w of heat. That would violate thermodynamics.

In Martin's testing he is just using maths to calculate the watts used vs actual work done which leaves a reminder as heat. He is not actually measuring how much of that heat goes into the fluid vs the air.

Actually he does go read that thread.... He tests the pumps by themselves with a thermos and measures the liquid temps. That is one of many threads that he talks about this in.

"No, a pump that uses 40w can't produce more than 40w of heat. That would violate thermodynamics."

Yes actually it can your thinking of it in a nice little box which it isnt in. This isnt a CPU where we only have to worry about Electrical heat, There is also heat from kinetic energy that is created as the shaft spins, oh and then there is more heat created by the water turbulence "you can covert the energy of water flow rate and pressure into wattage."

The pump is using and creating energy which you are seeming to forget.

Martin -

"I did something similar with my CPX-1 pump using a thermos and a known volume of water you can calculate the amount of heat.
The calculations go something like this:

q=(specific heat of H20)X(grams of H20) x dT
specific heat of water =(4.18 J/g-K)

1ml H20= 1 grams H20
dT is the change in temperature over an hour

There is 3,600 Joules per watt-hour, so
Watts = Joules/3600

This will tell you how many watts was entering the water. I did this for the Alphacool AP1510 and came up with 16watts, I did it for the CPX-1 and came up with 6 watts, and I even tried it on my Q6600 with Prime95 and came up with around 130watts. It's an interesting experiement." same link as above post #9

That Alphacool btw uses 17ws of power.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/1/16 at 11:35pm
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post #184 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

I just told you the shaft acts as a heatsink the shaft on a laing is the bearing as we call it. It is shaft, in reality. In a larger motor it does not dump as much heat as our small pumps do. However heat is still dumped into the water, however there massive flow rate also plays a part in relieving this heat as well.

"The motor is completely separate and the fluid does not come near it. " I explained this above the water does not come in contact with the motor itself you are correct. However the shaft carrys the heat like a heatsink does and that touches the water. When a motor spins a shaft the energy from the motor is pushed into the shaft.

You dont have to take my word for it I just gave you martins lol. Hit up Wikipedia on Centrifugal pumps it will say the same exact thing.

Dont get me wrong I understand what you are saying and why you think it isn't dumping heat into the loop, however it is that is a fact.

Pic of D5 shaft.

OKAY Again dont take my word for it Here is martins I kinda wrote a jist of it earlier but since you obviously do not listen here it is again.

Martin -

"The energy of the pump consumption leaves in three forms.

The biggest is motor heat energy lost into the water, which is generally somewhere between 80-90%, small pumping motors are just very inefficient.

The second is in the form of water horspower, you can covert the energy of water flow rate and pressure into wattage. This energy leaves the pump and is then lost in the restriction of the system. Most people don't think about this, but you do actually gain heat by the restrictions. Pressure drop in a waterblock for example is energy lost. That lost energy is transmitted into heat energy, most of which is absorbed by the water in the loop.

The third is motor heat lost in the air from the pump motor casing. If you've felt the bottom of a DDC pump, you know what that is. Some pumps loose more heat in the air than others and it depends on the pump motor design and how the motor does or doesn't transfer heat into the fluids. It likely also depends on how much air movement occurs around the pump.

But yes, all that energy goes somewhere, unfortunately most of it ends up getting watercooled... "

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?201800-Pump-Heat-Dump Post #25

So dont argue with me about it, go argue with one of our community's most respected Experts in our hobby.

A drive shaft and a bearing are two different things. A drive shaft turns to begin with. There is no drive shaft because the impeller is physically part of the motor.

A drive shaft is not a heat sink on a pump any more than it is on your car.

You said all centrifugal pumps are water cooled and that is just not true. If it was the pump on my farm wouldn't need it's own radiator. Also, being a shaft drive pump it can quite happily run with no fluid in the impeller. So that is not exactly being cooled by the fluid.

As Martin says above the amount of heat lost to air and fluid is dependent on design so I'm not arguing with him at all.

If DDC and d5 pumps got rid of their heat in the same way they would both run at the same temp and they don't.
Edited by Jakusonfire - 2/1/16 at 11:40pm
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post #185 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

A drive shaft and a bearing are two different things. There is no drive shaft because the impeller is physically part of the motor.

A drive shaft is not a heat sink on a pump any more than it is on your car.

You said all centrifugal pumps are water cooled and that is just not true. If it was the pump on my farm wouldn't need it's own radiator. Also, being a shaft drive pump it can quite happily run with no fluid in the impeller. So that is not exactly being cooled by the fluid.

As Martin says above the amount of heat lost to air and fluid is dependent on design so I'm not arguing with him at all.

He also says that a DDC dumps heat into the loop 80-90% of the energy used, so yes you are. You stated that a DDC doesn't dump heat into the loop it does alot as a matter of fact, not as much as a d5 no, but it still dumps quite a bit. Much more than that CPX-1 does. Lets not play a blind eye to "But yes, all that energy goes somewhere, unfortunately most of it ends up getting watercooled..."

"There is no drive shaft because the impeller is physically part of the motor." There is a shaft I just showed it you you, it may not be of the typical design but it is still a shaft. If you do not want to consider that to be a shaft that is fine then a D5 is not a centrifugal pump as for it to be it has to have a shaft.

"A drive shaft is not a heat sink on a pump any more than it is on your car." a drive shaft on your car is a heat sink as well lol, Go drive your car for a bit and then touch your drive shaft and tell me how that works out for you.

"You said all centrifugal pumps are water cooled and that is just not true" I said they all dump heat into the fluid and yes that is 100% true. There is pumps that do not dump heat into there fluid however centrifugal are not among them.

What I said for reference " All Centrifugal pumps dump there heat into water." That is 100% truth period, They may not dump all there heat but they dump alot of it into the liquid.

BTW the arguing with martin comment wasn't directed at you as you seem to think it was.

Also since I didn't catch it before, House style Pumps are displacement diaphragm pumps not Centrifugal. I sell those daily, and they have there own set of issues lol.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/2/16 at 12:02am
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post #186 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

He also says that a DDC dumps heat into the loop 80-90% of the energy used, so yes you are. You stated that a DDC doesn't dump heat into the loop it does alot as a matter of fact, not as much as a d5 no, but it still dumps quite a bit. Much more than that CPX-1 does. Lets not play a blind eye to "But yes, all that energy goes somewhere, unfortunately most of it ends up getting watercooled..."

"There is no drive shaft because the impeller is physically part of the motor." There is a shaft I just showed it you you, it may not be of the typical design but it is still a shaft. If you do not want to consider that to be a shaft that is fine then a D5 is not a centrifugal pump as for it to be it has to have a shaft.

"A drive shaft is not a heat sink on a pump any more than it is on your car." a drive shaft on your car is a heat sink as well lol, Go drive your car for a bit and then touch your drive shaft and tell me how that works out for you.

"You said all centrifugal pumps are water cooled and that is just not true" I said they all dump heat into the fluid and yes that is 100% true. There is pumps that do not dump heat into there fluid however centrifugal are not among them.

What I said for reference " All Centrifugal pumps dump there heat into water." That is 100% truth period, They may not dump all there heat but they dump alot of it into the liquid.

BTW the arguing with martin comment wasn't directed at you as you seem to think it was.

Being a long pointed shape does not make something a shaft. It's a bearing.

" All centrifugal pumps include a shaft-driven impeller that rotates"
So, how is this shaft as you call it driving the impeller? seeing as it doesn't move.
As I said before the Laing pump don't fit this lame definition of a centrifugal pump because of their unique and patented design.

From Laing
http://laing-thermotech.com/industrial-commercial-pumps/ddc-pump/
"The Principle of the Spherical Motor:
Invented by Laing, it is fundamentally different from conventional canned motor pumps. The only moving part in a spherical motor is a hemispherical rotor/impeller unit which sits on an ultra-hard, wear-resistant ceramic ball. There are no conventional shaft bearings or seals. This eliminates bearing noise and seal leaks."


"All centrifugal are cooled by liquid all of them thats the very definition of the pump style."
Man, these are some specific definitions of centrifugal pumps. These guys must have it wrong
http://www.jeepumpsindia.com/centrifugal-air-cooled-pumps.html

To be clear, nobody has said that pumps put zero heat into the fluid, that would violate thermodynamics.
You claim I said DDC's don't put heat into the fluid and that is just flat not true. I said they have an air sink option.
But putting some heat in and being water cooled are two different things.
If The DDC was truly a water cooled pump it would get cooler at higher flow rates rather than warmer and not need an air sink under any circumstances.


Again. 40W cannot be turned into over 40W ... that would be getting something for nothing and violating the laws of thermodynamics. Its just not how the universe works.
If a pump consumes 40W then it dissipates 40W in different ways. As mechanical work moving the water and as waste heat, some into the fluid and some into the air.

I went and touched the drive shaft on my car and it was cool to the touch. As you would expect seeing as it is driven by the gearbox and has many layers of disconnection from the actual engine. A drive shaft need not even be made of a great heat conducting material.
Edited by Jakusonfire - 2/2/16 at 1:16am
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post #187 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

He also says that a DDC dumps heat into the loop 80-90% of the energy used, so yes you are. You stated that a DDC doesn't dump heat into the loop it does alot .

Actually if anyone carefully looks at the internal design of D5's and DDC pumps you can see why DDC pumps require a heatsink when driven hard while D5's do not.

D5's use the metal impeller bowl as a heatsink - that is why it is metal. So on the D5 design the majority of heat is transferred via the metal impeller bowl into the water. The components that generate the majority of heat are the windings which generate the rotating magnetic field and these use the metal impeller bowl as their thermal conductive interface AKA heatsink.

DDC's are totally different - Their windings are NOT connected to the impeller bowl in any way. They basically sit in free air, you can see a relatively large air gap between the impeller bowl and the windings themselves.

They are designed to transfer the majority of heat through the PCB and any airflow which surrounds the windings.

This is why they require a heatsink on the rear of the case when driven hard. They simply do not transfer the majority of heat back into the coolant as first off there is a large air gap between the bowl and the windings and secondly the impeller bowl is made from plastic which is a very poor thermal conductor.

If you perform some specific temp measurements with an IR probe etc - you will see that the most hottest part of a DDC is the rear of the case. If you slip the case you can even probe it further and seee that the windings and driver IC are what is simply generating the heat.

Sure some heat will transfer through from the internals via the plastic impeller bowl but to state that the majority of heat is transferred to the coolant in a DDC pump is incorrect. If it was actually true that the majority of heat was being transferred to the coolant then they simply would never require a heatsink....!
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post #188 of 243
Ya know what, screw it. Why are you guys messing around with PC watercooling with your know-how on the subject?

The real money is in cars. Go on and patent your theories now, and sell those patents to GM or Ford for millions. They have obviously not bothered to put the research and engineering into the topic like you guys have and still use our ignorant, archaic train of thought on cooling as I don't see parallel set-ups in any car, and if adding a second water pump into you are sure to get a better flow rate. Heck, why not 3, then you can just get rid of the fan and reduce the size of the radiator, since the faster the flow, the better the cooling, no need in messing with those big clucky radiators and fans in your car if you have enough of a flow rate, right?\
post #189 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMock View Post

as I don't see parallel set-ups in any car

My 911 has two rads up front with an option for a third rad - guess what... they are connected in series... smile.gif
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post #190 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

Being a long pointed shape does not make something a shaft. It's a bearing.

" All centrifugal pumps include a shaft-driven impeller that rotates"
So, how is this shaft as you call it driving the impeller? seeing as it doesn't move.
As I said before the Laing pump don't fit this lame definition of a centrifugal pump because of their unique and patented design.

From Laing
http://laing-thermotech.com/industrial-commercial-pumps/ddc-pump/
"The Principle of the Spherical Motor:
Invented by Laing, it is fundamentally different from conventional canned motor pumps. The only moving part in a spherical motor is a hemispherical rotor/impeller unit which sits on an ultra-hard, wear-resistant ceramic ball. There are no conventional shaft bearings or seals. This eliminates bearing noise and seal leaks."


"All centrifugal are cooled by liquid all of them thats the very definition of the pump style."
Man, these are some specific definitions of centrifugal pumps. These guys must have it wrong
http://www.jeepumpsindia.com/centrifugal-air-cooled-pumps.html

To be clear, nobody has said that pumps put zero heat into the fluid, that would violate thermodynamics.
You claim I said DDC's don't put heat into the fluid and that is just flat not true. I said they have an air sink option.
But putting some heat in and being water cooled are two different things.
If The DDC was truly a water cooled pump it would get cooler at higher flow rates rather than warmer and not need an air sink under any circumstances.


Again. 40W cannot be turned into over 40W ... that would be getting something for nothing and violating the laws of thermodynamics. Its just not how the universe works.
If a pump consumes 40W then it dissipates 40W in different ways. As mechanical work moving the water and as waste heat, some into the fluid and some into the air.

I went and touched the drive shaft on my car and it was cool to the touch. As you would expect seeing as it is driven by the gearbox and has many layers of disconnection from the actual engine. A drive shaft need not even be made of a great heat conducting material.

The entire convo was about heat dump, as thats why his increasing flow does not work. He stated a d5 was bad as it dumps heat into the loop, you stated that a ddc has a air sink option. That to me says you are saying that it doesn't dump heat into the loop. No all the heat is dumped into the loop I agree with that, however I think it dumps more heat into the loop than you think it does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costas View Post

Actually if anyone carefully looks at the internal design of D5's and DDC pumps you can see why DDC pumps require a heatsink when driven hard while D5's do not.

D5's use the metal impeller bowl as a heatsink - that is why it is metal. So on the D5 design the majority of heat is transferred via the metal impeller bowl into the water. The components that generate the majority of heat are the windings which generate the rotating magnetic field and these use the metal impeller bowl as their thermal conductive interface AKA heatsink.

DDC's are totally different - Their windings are NOT connected to the impeller bowl in any way. They basically sit in free air, you can see a relatively large air gap between the impeller bowl and the windings themselves.

They are designed to transfer the majority of heat through the PCB and any airflow which surrounds the windings.

This is why they require a heatsink on the rear of the case when driven hard. They simply do not transfer the majority of heat back into the coolant as first off there is a large air gap between the bowl and the windings and secondly the impeller bowl is made from plastic which is a very poor thermal conductor.

If you perform some specific temp measurements with an IR probe etc - you will see that the most hottest part of a DDC is the rear of the case. If you slip the case you can even probe it further and seee that the windings and driver IC are what is simply generating the heat.

Sure some heat will transfer through from the internals via the plastic impeller bowl but to state that the majority of heat is transferred to the coolant in a DDC pump is incorrect. If it was actually true that the majority of heat was being transferred to the coolant then they simply would never require a heatsink....!

Now this is to both of you. Martin -
"This information is not particularly important in comparing tops using the same pump motor, but it is EXTREMELY important in pump selection because a large percentage 60-90% of the pump power consumption is dumped into the water cooling loop as HEAT!" That is taken form the DDC pump top review. http://martinsliquidlab.petrastech.com/DDC32PumpTopTesting.html.

So ya I realize you guys think that a DDC only dumps a couple of watts however I am here to tell you your wrong.

Rosco Tested this on ES, he found a 60-65% heat dump from a DDC pump. "DDC 1+ is based on same geometry and materials than DDC 1 so heat dump will be nearly the same, let's say 60-65%, so ~10-13 W in water (depends of restriction)." http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?94150-DDC-heat-dump-test post #4

That 60-65% also goes in hand with martins numbers (60-90%). Now 60-65% is a whole lot less than a d5 with its 80-85% heat dump I agree. However 60% of of the heat dumped into the loop is still alot.

So back to the original point that we are arguing about to begin with dude said that "d5s are bad pumps then pump heat dump is negligible" No it isnt.

To give you an idea of how much of a diffren that makes here is that simple test ran on XS that martin was commenting on, We know that a CP1x is dumping about 6ws into the loop as per martin. We also know that a DDC is dumping about 10ws of heat into the loop. Now here is a comparison in temps rise between the 2 pumps.

DDC 18watt 3.2 = 37.9
CPX-Pro = 29.4

That is an 8C gain, that is only from 4ws of extra heat dump in the loop, that is far from negligible.


"This is why they require a heatsink on the rear of the case when driven hard. They simply do not transfer the majority of heat back into the coolant as first off there is a large air gap between the bowl and the windings and secondly the impeller bowl is made from plastic which is a very poor thermal conductor."

I know why you think that, but you are wrong. It dumps 60% of its wattage in heat into the loop, that is the majority of its heat. nNow as I said above yes a d5 dumps alot more of its heat (80% or so) back into the loop, it also has a higher wattage. However a DDC still dumps the majority of its heat into the loop.

I have no problem believing that a DDC doesn't dump its heat into the loop, I thought that for the longest time until I was shown differently. However all both of you are doing is theorizing why it shouldn't and I am showing you tests and evidence that it does. So just like we all told OP, put up or shutup its a quite simple test or show me results that say that I am wrong your opinion's and theory's do not matter when I can show evidence that I am right.

Now however a d5 vs a ddc in terms of heat dump the DDC wins, this is however not only because it dumps 60-65% vs a d5s 80% but also becasue the DDC only uses 21ws to the D5s 40ws. This does mean that a d5 will dump axp 3 times the heat a DDC does, but this has less to do with it being semi aircooled and more to do with a D5 using double the wattage.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/2/16 at 7:51am
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