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Serial VS Parallel 9.6LPM - Page 20

post #191 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Now this is to both of you. Martin -

If you followed up with Martin re some of his later experiences with these pumps he has stated that correctly setup DDC's do not dump all that much heat into the loop as compared to D5's.

There is a thread somewhere on here regarding a much more recent discussion with Martin on this very topic.

There are a number of variables that were not considered in these very early tests on DDC1s. eg: Was the DDC run with or without a heatsink and was there any airflow around the base of the pump. The pumps in those tests were simply run flat out with no added external cooling which is not how a DDC should be operated.

Over the years more recent experience shows us that running DDC's flat out really requires the use of external cooling to remove the heat from the pump rather than allowing the whole pump housing to heat up.

Once the housing heats up - then yes it will transfer this heat into your coolant (albeit quite ineficiently due to the plastic bowl interface) but if we use a heatsink and/or some air cooling around the base of the pump we can then draw this heat heat away preventing the housing to saturate with heat and thereby preventing this heat to transfer into the loop. So I would consider these very early tests not representative of what can be achieved with a correctly setup DDC.

If you setup correct cooling on a DDC pump very little heat is transferred into the coolant - You can cool a DDC pump by adding airflow and/or a heatsink to its casing - You cannot do the same for a D5 as it is not designed to have any form of external cooling - It simply relies totally on the coolant to cool the pump. DDC's do not rely on the coolant to cool them - they rely on an external mechanism for cooling - airflow/heatsink.

You can carry out a simple test yourself (I have done this myself) - grab a D5 and place some oil on the ceramic bearing. Now let it run in free air (the oil will protect the ceramic bearing) for a few moments and then stop it and check the inner bowl temp with your finger. Do the same with a DDC that is being cooled correctly and the temp rise is no where near as noticeable.


Simple fact is that we can actually remove the majority of heat from a DDC pump utilising external means which prevents this same heat from transferring into the loop whereas a D5 design does not allow for this.

Another thing to note is that the later DDC's eg: v3.2 etc have much more improved driver circuitry and are more efficient which thereby means less heat dissipation for a given pump flow figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

d5 will dump axp 3 times the heat a DDC does, but this has less to do with it being semi aircooled and more to do with a D5 using double the wattage.

IIRC typical D5 is only around 23 Watts and a DDC3.2 is around 18W going by rated specs.


Anyway - after all this discussion on pumps - I don't think pump heat dissipation is going to make much difference to the OP topic.
Edited by Costas - 2/2/16 at 3:39pm
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post #192 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costas View Post

If you followed up with Martin re some of his later experiences with these pumps he has stated that correctly setup DDC's do not dump all that much heat into the loop as compared to D5's.

There is a thread somewhere on here regarding a much more recent discussion with Martin on this very topic.

There are a number of variables that were not considered in these very early tests on DDC1s. eg: Was the DDC run with or without a heatsink and was there any airflow around the base of the pump. The pumps in those tests were simply run flat out with no added external cooling which is not how a DDC should be operated.

Over the years more recent experience shows us that running DDC's flat out really requires the use of external cooling to remove the heat from the pump rather than allowing the whole pump housing to heat up.

Once the housing heats up - then yes it will transfer this heat into your coolant (albeit quite ineficiently due to the plastic bowl interface) but if we use a heatsink and/or some air cooling around the base of the pump we can then draw this heat heat away preventing the housing to saturate with heat and thereby preventing this heat to transfer into the loop. So I would consider these very early tests not representative of what can be achieved with a correctly setup DDC.

If you setup correct cooling on a DDC pump very little heat is transferred into the coolant - You can cool a DDC pump by adding airflow and/or a heatsink to its casing - You cannot do the same for a D5 as it is not designed to have any form of external cooling - It simply relies totally on the coolant to cool the pump. DDC's do not rely on the coolant to cool them - they rely on an external mechanism for cooling - airflow/heatsink.

You can carry out a simple test yourself (I have done this myself) - grab a D5 and place some oil on the ceramic bearing. Now let it run in free air (the oil will protect the ceramic bearing) for a few moments and then stop it and check the inner bowl temp with your finger. Do the same with a DDC that is being cooled correctly and the temp rise is no where near as noticeable.
Also this is not true - as a typical D5 is only around 23 Watts and a DDC3.2 is around 18W.

"Finally, regardless of the improvements to heat reduction and pump life improvements, most heat produced by pumps usually ends up in the cooling loop putting additional stress on the radiator. Removal of the pump heat via the MCP35X-HS is a very effective means to reducing water temperatures and improving overall cooling performance of the water cooling loop."

Martins newer comments on the subject, you cann se in his review that it lowers the pumps heat by 15 degrees, the DDC is still dumping heat. If you string together a bunch of DDCs well now you have a party. I am not saying a heatsink doesn't help it does I am saying it doesn't eliminate it. Even with the heatsink and a fan on it the pump still runs at 70 degrees vs 85 so ya heat is being dumped.

"Also this is not true - as a typical D5 is only around 23 Watts and a DDC3.2 is around 18W." My EK d5 in my loop right now says right on it 30ws. A d5 strong can reach 37ws. And yes a ddc 3.2 is 18ws.

You are obviously missing the entire point of the convo, The argument here was the guy thinks that if he gets a super high flow then his temps will go down. This is false do to pump heat dump. So Again I will post this ti reiterate.

"You can gain some performance with more than one pump, but it’s not as much as you might hope for. Typically the CPU block and radiator performance curves relative to flow rate are not much more than 1-3 degrees or so beyond the 1GPM rule and many times much less than that. It is a factor of flow rate gains and pump heat dump where more pump does increase flow and performance however it negatively impacts the performance by adding heat into the loop. Generally you can see gains upwards of about 40W or so and much more than that can actually cause more harm than good. 10-25W worth of pumping power is typically plenty good. More can be better, but more is not always better. Two smaller 10-25W pumps in series are a good combo of providing near optimal pumping performance if you’re aiming to get every last degree out of your parts. Some have pushed to even more, but diminishing returns present themselves fairly quickly past about 40-60W worth of pumping power."

That does not say "Oh DDCs dont dump heat," because they do like it or not they do that is a fact. I dont need to touch a D5 and touch a DDC as I already stated they do not dump as much heat, no one is debating that. I am saying they do dump heat period.

Even with a heat sink A DDC is 70 degrees, when you have a 70 degree pump moving 30c water that water is absorbing that heat.
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post #193 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Two smaller 10-25W pumps in series are a good combo of providing near optimal pumping performance if you’re aiming to get every last degree out of your parts.

As you state you can drive them at lowish speeds hence less heat being dissipated due to running them at a more efficient level ie not flat out... I currently run a dual DDC setup in one rig and will be running a dual D5 in another (currently build).

The dual DDC in my current loop never even gets warm due to the low drive levels yet it is still flowing at just under 400lpm - So with the circuitry barely raising a sweat as is I'd say there is next to nothing being dumped in the loop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Even with a heat sink A DDC is 70 degrees,

Well - in reality a component in the case maybe 70 deg - however all this heat does not transfer to the rest of the case, especially the volute etc - Certainly when I have been testing on my test bench with well setup DDCs - the case does not get anywhere near 70 C
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

My EK d5 in my loop right now says right on it 30ws.

Curious as to which pump you have as the current EK D5's ie standard PWM and vario are all rated at 23W.
Edited by Costas - 2/2/16 at 4:14pm
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post #194 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costas View Post

As you state you can drive them at lowish speeds hence less heat being dissipated due to running them at a more efficient level ie not flat out... I currently run a dual DDC setup in one rig and will be running a dual D5 in another (currently build).

The dual DDC in my current loop never even gets warm due to the low drive levels yet it is still flowing at just under 400lpm - So with the circuitry barely raising a sweat as is I'd say there is next to nothing being dumped in the loop.
Well - in reality a component in the case maybe 70 deg - however all this heat does not transfer to the rest of the case, especially the volute etc - Certainly when I have been testing on my test bench with well setup DDCs - the case does not get anywhere near 70 C
Curious as to which pump you have as the current EK D5's ie standard PWM and vario are all rated at 23W.

You are running ddcs are normilized speeds though, OP and the guy this was directed too wants to run a whole bunch at the highest speed they can go with the least amount of restriciton he is using a 3gpm flow rate atm and trying to go higher. That was the issue, The pumps heat is not bad when its used at 1gpm however when you start going to 3-4-5 gallons per min that changes and is the reason the temps will not go down by much and at a certain point will actually increase.

I have EK Xtops they are Varios. I also have Mcp35xs but thats aside from the point smile.gif. I am sure in a normal use a d5 wont even hit 23Ws if it is just providing 1gpm with noise in consideration but OP and Iwan dont want normal use they want insane flow rates, thinking it will achieve lower temps.
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post #195 of 243
I have a couple of old 18w DDC2's in my loop in series. I have fitted bitspower heatsinks and a dual xspc top.

Prior to installing them in my loop and before installing the heatsinks/top I ran them in a few configurations and made some observations. Key word is observation there!

#1 running 2 18w DDC's in a loop with no radiator or waterblocks ie, very low restriction results in the pumps running at the very upper limits of it's specification, about 4800 rpm. I didn't have an active source of airflow on the pump housing. The result of running at such high rpm is that the pcb becomes extremely hot and without active cooling on the housing and any means of heat dissipation in the loop the housing became saturated with heat and this in turn dumped into the loop resulting in a rather fast water temp increase. Running the pumps this way for any extended period of time will actually kill them from burning out the pcb. So in this configuration they have quite a large heat dump into the water due to inadequate sinking of the heat via external means.

#2 I fitted the heatsink and dual top but still only had tubing and pumps in the loop. Heat sink did a good job of keeping the housing much cooler even without a fan on it and as a result the coolant temp was less than before. But as the pumps were still running flat out and there was no active means of heat dissipation the housing still got what I would describe as hot after a few minutes.

#3 added a fan under the housing blowing ambient air on the heatsink, now the housing stays warm after a few minutes of pumps running flat out.

#4 added restriction to the loop via a CPU block and 2 gpu blocks but still no radiator. This resulted in pump rpm dropping to about 4500. This is the key. At this speed the pcb is not getting as hot and the housing is not being saturated with heat. I was actually able to remove the fan and just allow ambient air to cool the heat sink and it barely gets warm. With the fan on the heat sink still the heat dumped into the water is reduced quite considerably over the standard housing without active cooling but mainly the key is restriction in the loop limiting the rpm slightly. I am very happy with the flow rate/noise and heat from this pump setup. My old D5 was quieter, but had less flow rate and a higher heat dump into the loop. Actually I like the idea of the D5 being cooled by the fluid as it is much more reliable, but size constraints and my desire for a higher flow rate made me move to dual DDC's. I wanted higher flow rate at the custom TEC waterblock I am using has decent enough thermal efficiency improvement from flow rate increases to justify it. But it is only in the realm of a few degrees but I was chasing extra degrees temp drop everywhere I could.


Back to the reason for this little sub argument though. I agree that having an extremely high flow rate may increase the heat dissipation of a passive loop the key factor is the pumping power required to get it there will outweigh the gains. The only way to avoid that would be to use tap water as jak said which is totally impractical for real work usage. So, can we end this pointless argument and go back to one of the other pointless arguments in this thread? ;-)
post #196 of 243
This thread, if organized properly, could really become "The Watercooling Megathread" as it contains tons of useful info (even if some of it anecdotal)
post #197 of 243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

Which part is my opinion? The part about the rotometer? That is fact you are wrong or at the very least you are backwards and exaggerating.

The thing is with the rotometers, is that what you are saying doesn't make any since. Your saying that reducing restriction will lower his flow rate and no that is not accurate.

If your claim is that his flow rate between the Toto meter and a koolance flow meter are differing that may be true. However not by 1/2 I do not think.

However to your op I am in agreeance with you did you read the whole post. I am agreeing with your OP, the problem with the OP is the way you are saying it. And the lack of proffesionalism in the post. I told you if you showed me something I could wrap my head around I would help you and I am now offering that.

That is fact you are wrong or at the very least you are backwards.

ok so how did you know that my understanding was backwards?
I am wrong, and in fact my understanding is backwards, the mid range of the rotameter does a very good job of correcting the mistake of having the wrong sized tubing.
but I am stubborn so I decided to test the meter at all the flow rates with the wrong sized tubing and as I go up and down the scale from the middle the amount that the meter is off becomes greater.
but with the right sized tubing the rotameter is very accurate all the way up and down the scale.

I will have accurate results, as I am weighing the water after each live test of the system to be a little more accurate.
post #198 of 243
I never disagreed that pumps dump heat into coolant like Iwamotto was. I have no problem with that at all.
All I said was that not all pumps are water cooled and that DDC and d5s are different.

Disagreeing with one small point does not mean taking issue with the whole concept.
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post #199 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire View Post

I never disagreed that pumps dump heat into coolant like Iwamotto was. I have no problem with that at all.
All I said was that not all pumps are water cooled and that DDC and d5s are different.

Disagreeing with one small point does not mean taking issue with the whole concept.

I know smile.gif I aint mad or think you were no hard feelings here at all, that was a fun convo/debate. I was mostly directing to Iwamotto, And then we are on the net and words get mixed up and people get confused about what each other is trying to say it happens.

I agree with Liam, lets get back to the OPs crazy theory now smile.gif.
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

That is fact you are wrong or at the very least you are backwards.

ok so how did you know that my understanding was backwards?
I am wrong, and in fact my understanding is backwards, the mid range of the rotameter does a very good job of correcting the mistake of having the wrong sized tubing.
but I am stubborn so I decided to test the meter at all the flow rates with the wrong sized tubing and as I go up and down the scale from the middle the amount that the meter is off becomes greater.
but with the right sized tubing the rotameter is very accurate all the way up and down the scale.

I will have accurate results, as I am weighing the water after each live test of the system to be a little more accurate.

I look forward to the results.
Edited by Cyber Locc - 2/2/16 at 7:29pm
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post #200 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

That is fact you are wrong or at the very least you are backwards.

ok so how did you know that my understanding was backwards?
I am wrong, and in fact my understanding is backwards, the mid range of the rotameter does a very good job of correcting the mistake of having the wrong sized tubing.
but I am stubborn so I decided to test the meter at all the flow rates with the wrong sized tubing and as I go up and down the scale from the middle the amount that the meter is off becomes greater.
but with the right sized tubing the rotameter is very accurate all the way up and down the scale.

I will have accurate results, as I am weighing the water after each live test of the system to be a little more accurate.

so if you are saying the rotameter is incorrect with different tubing sizes what are you using to set your flow rate to the same volume with the different tubing size?

because if nothing changes in the loop other than the tubing size then your flow rate will be slightly different from reduced or increased restriction. If you run your pump flat out with just the pump, a rotameter and another flow meter in the loop, your flow rate will vary with the tubing size, so you will have to increase or decrease the pump speed to maintain the same flow rate across all tests.

Now if you don't trust the rotameter, what are you using to make sure flow rate is maintained the same and how are you controlling the pump to achieve that? it comes back to you using an impeller style flow meter or other inferior means of measuring flow rate that are inaccurate with different tubing sizes, so in effect if you are testing with the pump flat out in all scenarios and only changing tubing sizes and basing the argument that the rotameter is wrong from your measurements from an impeller style flow meter then you have it all around the wrong way, the rotameter is not influenced by tubing sizes other than the fact that restriction changes which will slightly change the flow rate up or down, but the measurement of that flow rate is correct, but the impeller style is influenced by the tubing sizes as it can vary the rpm of the impeller via increased or decreased velocity, the velocity through the impeller area itself may be the same but it has been proven that they are inaccurate with the wrong tubing size, which is why some of them such as the koolance ones have a switch to select tubing size or the aquacomputer hi flow ones can be calibrated with a custom impulses per second amount or a custom calibration file for the MPS pressure versions, so please, if you are trying to prove that an industrial grade rotameter is inaccurate based of your measurements with a consumer piece of equipment that is an indication only in terms of flow measurement accuracy then please stop now.

If you are using some other method of determining the so called "error' of the rotameter then please tell me, if its the old timed filling of a bucket trick then just kill me now lol.
Edited by LiamG6 - 2/2/16 at 7:54pm
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