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Serial VS Parallel 9.6LPM - Page 10

post #91 of 243
Thread Starter 
Test Stuff still have a few things coming but it will get done.
http://imgur.com/a/ZI3VT



here is the right size of tubing for the flow meter 3/4"ID

tubing that is twice the size for what the flow meter was designed for 1 1/2"ID



and tubing that is half the size for what the flow meter was designed for 3/8"ID
post #92 of 243
Thread Starter 
http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm

this makes it easy to do the math for this experiment, of how fluid velocity effects a mechanical rotameter flow meter.

and I will demonstrate this as well.

to give a quick break down of what I am going to be demonstrating I am going to connect different sized tubing to a rotameter but I will maintain the same flow rate for the system each time.

this is how that works out mathematically

this rotameter is designed to have .75" tubing piped to it, and because of this the rotameter only understands a certain range of fluid velocities, and they are from 4.6 centimeters per second to 40.9 centimeters per second, this is shown on the rotameter as flow rates from .8LPM to 7LPM.

for .75" ID tubing
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
17.5CPS and this rotameter will read
3LPM at this fluid velocity

when I attach 1.5" ID tubing to the system
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
4.3CPS so the flow indicator on the rotermeter
will not move from the bottom of the rotameter
because this fluid velocity is below its understanding.

when I attach .375" ID tubing to the system
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
70.1CPS so the flow indicator on the rotameter
will be all the way at the top of the rotameter
because this fluid velocity is above its understanding

I will also have a larger rotameter to show that the size of the meter does not matter and I will also show why the little black knob on the flow meter will not fix the issue of having the wrong size tubing piped to the rotameter.
Edited by toolmaker03 - 1/30/16 at 9:38am
post #93 of 243
In the above examples - all it will show us is that the velocity of the water must fall within the dynamic range of the flow meter for it to read correctly.

What we would like to see tested is having two setups where the fluid velocity falls in the correct range but by using two different sized tubing in both setups.

So what we want to prove as stated earlier in the thread is that the tubing size affects the flow meters accuracy and not the actual velocity of the fluid.

So I suggest keeping the fluid velocity constant in both setups and thereby calculating the flow through both tubing sizes manually and compare with the flowmeter's actual reading.

Only this way we can see what effect the tubing size may have.
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post #94 of 243
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costas View Post

In the above examples - all it will show us is that the velocity of the water must fall within the dynamic range of the flow meter for it to read correctly.

What we would like to see tested is having two setups where the fluid velocity falls in the correct range but by using two different sized tubing in both setups.

So what we want to prove as stated earlier in the thread is that the tubing size affects the flow meters accuracy and not the actual velocity of the fluid.

So I suggest keeping the fluid velocity constant in both setups and thereby calculating the flow through both tubing sizes manually and compare with the flowmeter's actual reading.

Only this way we can see what effect the tubing size may have.

sorry but no that is not how it works.

changing the tubing size, changes the way that the rotameter understands flow rates, because the fluid velocity of the system has changed so drastically.

I will keep my experiment as described.

I will also demonstrate this at the 7LPM flow rate with the larger flow meter and a constant flow rate on all the water loops with different sized tubing.

but at the end I will show how turning the little knob on my second rotameter that understands from 2LPM to 16LPM effects how it understands the flow rates of the loop with the right size tubing, and the two different wrong size tubing setups.

there is a calculator in the OP that you can play with, to see what you are talking about change the flow rates around and the tubing sizes, until you find what your looking for and let me know what you learn.

I am going to in a way show what you are asking, that is what the knob on the rotameter in my experiment is for, when I have tubing that is twice the size of what the rotometer was designed to understand the reading on the rotameter will always be at least half of what the actual system flow rate is and it only gets worse as I go up the scale from the bottom.
and when I use tubing that is half the size of tubing that the rotameter meter is designed to understand the reading on the rotameter will always be at least twice what the actual system flow rate is and it only gets worse as I go down the scale from the top.
that is when I am within the fluid velocities that the rotameter is capable of understanding.
I will use that knob on the rotameter to alter the system flow rates according to what the rotameter is showing, and I have another flow meter in the loop, that will show the correct flow rate for all the systems with the different sized tubing, as well I will do physical tests of each system to show what the actual flow rate of the system is.
Edited by toolmaker03 - 1/30/16 at 9:36am
post #95 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

http://www.1728.org/flowrate.htm

this makes it easy to do the math for this experiment, of how fluid velocity effects a mechanical rotameter flow meter.

and I will demonstrate this as well.

to give a quick break down of what I am going to be demonstrating I am going to connect different sized tubing to a rotameter but I will maintain the same flow rate for the system each time.

this is how that works out mathematically

this rotameter is designed to have .75" tubing piped to it, and because of this the rotameter only understands a certain range of fluid velocities, and they are from 4.6 centimeters per second to 40.9 centimeters per second, this is shown on the rotameter as flow rates from .8LPM to 7LPM.

for .75" ID tubing
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
17.5CPS and this rotameter will read
3LPM at this fluid velocity

when I attach 1.5" ID tubing to the system
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
4.3CPS so the flow indicator on the rotermeter
will not move from the bottom of the rotameter
because this fluid velocity is below its understanding.

when I attach .375" ID tubing to the system
and with the system having a flow rate of 3LPM
the fluid velocity of the system is
70.1CPM so the flow indicator on the rotameter
will be all the way at the top of the rotameter
because this fluid velocity is above its understanding

I will also have a larger rotameter to show that the size of the meter does not matter and I will also show why the little black knob on the flow meter will not fix the issue of having the wrong size tubing piped to the rotameter.


The Fluid velocity only changes in the different sized tubings. When a tube constricts down the fluid velocity must increase to maintain the same flow rate and the reverse is true when the tubing opens up. In a loop with three different diameter tubings the fluid velocity will be different in each section but the flow rate is always the same. The rotameter works because its a known diameter so the velocity moving the float provides the reading.

Having wide tubing leading up to the meter or narrow tube doesn't matter because the fluid always has to either speed up or slow down in the known diameter of the rotameter. In fact it changes velocity along the length of the rotameter because it is a widening cone shaped tube, narrow at the bottom and wide at the top.
If it had 1 inch tube connected to it, the fluid travels at a sedate velocity,
then it hits the narrower 1/4 NPT fittings and speeds up,
then it feeds through a very narrow valve section and speeds up even further.
The diameter of the tube feeding it is now irrelevant. As the fluid flows up the meter it changes velocity as the body opens up. Then it exits to the 1 inch tube and slows down again.
As Costa mentioned earlier if that wasn't true then the valve on the bottom of the flow meter that allows you to adjust flow rate would absolutely useless. The velocity would be lowest with it fully open and very high with it nearly closed, which if what you suggest was true would mean it would read lowest with the valve open and gradually read higher as the valve was closed, Obviously that simply doesn't happen.

In your examples above with the different sized tubing you are simply saying that the fluid does not change velocity as it moves from the tube to the meter and that is just crazy talk. The only possible way that could work like that was if the meters internal diameter changed along with the tube each time.
The velocity may well be 17.5 Cps in the 75" tube and 4.3 Cps in the 1.5" tube but as soon as it hits the meter it changes. The internal diameter of mine varies from about 8mm to 20mm so say maybe 15mm average. 4.3Cps through that would be 0.4Lpm and obviously you can't have different flow rates in the same system. 3Lpm in the tube means 3Lpm through the meter or fluid would have to vanish.
You state in the example that each has a system velocity and that is just flat nonsense. There is a system flow rate, but not in any way a system flow velocity, because it varies with the diameter of each individual section.

Using your own tool from above you have length of pipe made of three different diameter sections. 20mm, 15, and 10mm. You pump 4Lpm through it so. So, does the velocity stay the same along the length or does it change from 21, to 38, and finally 84 Cps.
Of course it changes or the flow rate would have to change. Just like the velocity changes as it enters the flow meter.

Once you actually try this instead of just talking about it and saying you've done it, you are going to get a shock. Double readings and not getting the float to move with the same flow rates is pure fantasy, weapons grade fantastical bunk.
Edited by Jakusonfire - 1/30/16 at 3:55am
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post #96 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

changing the tubing size, changes the way that the rotameter understands flow rates

No this is not true...!

Note that all rotameters that feature a control valve on their inlet simply have a restriction device [the valve itself] which limits the diameter that the fluid can pass through.

Therefore if we follow your theory the control valve itself would impact the rotameter's accuracy - but this is simply not the case. Just think about what the control valve is doing at the input of the flowmeter - It is reducing the flow simply by reducing the orifice that the fluid can pass through, and I can tell you that for a fact that the orifice is a lot smaller than the 3/8" tubing you have chosen in your example when it is closed down a fair amount.


This >
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
The Fluid velocity only changes in the different sized tubings. When a tube constricts down the fluid velocity must increase to maintain the same flow rate and the reverse is true when the tubing opens up. In a loop with three different diameter tubings the fluid velocity will be different in each section but the flow rate is always the same.


And more importantly this >
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jakusonfire 
The rotameter works because its a known diameter so the velocity moving the float provides the reading.

are two points that you seem to be not taking into account.



Here is a simple test - Grab two of the same flowmeters, place them in series but connect one with say 3/4" tubing at its input/output and then connect the other one with say 3/8" tubing etc. Now connect them up in a closed loop and pump some fluid through them.

Let's now see if the flowmeters read substantially differently or not?
Edited by Costas - 1/30/16 at 3:21am
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post #97 of 243
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costas View Post

No this is not true...!

Note that all rotameters that feature a control valve on their inlet simply have a restriction device [the valve itself] which limits the diameter that the fluid can pass through.

Therefore if we follow your theory the control valve itself would impact the rotameter's accuracy - but this is simply not the case. Just think about what the control valve is doing at the input of the flowmeter - It is reducing the flow simply by reducing the orifice that the fluid can pass through, and I can tell you that for a fact that the orifice is a lot smaller than the 3/8" tubing you have chosen in your example when it is closed down a fair amount.


This >
And more importantly this >
are two points that you seem to be not taking into account.



Here is a simple test - Grab two of the same flowmeters, place them in series but connect one with say 3/4" tubing at its input/output and then connect the other one with say 3/8" tubing etc. Now connect them up in a closed loop and pump some fluid through them.

Let's now see if the flowmeters read substantially differently or not?

what ever, I have provided the math, and a explanation of what I will be demonstrating, you can believe what ever you would like to.

here is some food for thought, the truth is repeatable, and all I am going to show, is the truth.
post #98 of 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by toolmaker03 View Post

what ever, I have provided the math, and a explanation of what I will be demonstrating, you can believe what ever you would like to.

here is some food for thought, the truth is repeatable, and all I am going to show, is the truth.

I don't know I think you will be showing weapon grade fantastical bunk.
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post #99 of 243
No maths has been shown other than that tubing diameter effects flow velocity.
Yet for some reason you think the same does not apply in the flow meter.
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post #100 of 243
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyber Locc View Post

I don't know I think you will be showing weapon grade fantastical bunk.

well if you own a rotameter, you can always fallow along with my experiment, and see for yourself, if your rotameter reacts the same way, that mine does. thumb.gif
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