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post #111 of 160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

Reading and listening to logs and unlocking doors doesn't save a game from being a walking sim.

It's a walking sim.

There are a handful of enemies that you "escape" from and you unravel a story.

I'd recommend everyone who likes horror and sci-fi to "experience" it, but I still think it's a walking sim.

It's a game I think about all the time, and I even haven't played it in like 6 months. I'm going through Bioshock 2 now, so maybe I'll scratch more of my underwater fix and "play" it again.

But it's still a walking sim.

No, having actual gameplay saves it from that. Walking isn't the purpose and by calling it a walking sim you are devaluing everything else about it, which you probably don't realize since anyone calling a game a "walking simulator" is clearly posting without thinking.

Explain why SOMA is a walking simulator and why BioShock (let's not say BioShock 2 since I never played it) isn't. You walk in both games. The purpose of both games isn't to walk. In both games you do not just walk from start to finish with no resistance or obstacles, unlike Dear Esther which is perhaps the only game deserving of being called a walking simulator. Nope, lots of resistance/obstacles, but in more forms in SOMA than BioShock. In BioShock it is enemies, in SOMA it is more diverse enemies and the environment itself. BioShock has a few segments where the environment takes on this role but it's far simpler than SOMA in this regard.

SOMA has more complex gameplay than BioShock; not mechanically but in tasks. Both are about as simple as a game can get mechanically, pull trigger in BioShock or use a power, interact key in SOMA although SOMA's interact key has a far wider range of uses in-game.

SOMA has stealth, SOMA has lots of enemy encounters and almost every single one is uniquely programmed and designed resulting in different gameplay tactics, more so than BioShock which just has regular enemies (press LMB until dead) and then big daddies which just involve throwing everything including the kitchen sink at them. But then even big daddies get repetitive since they end up being no different later in the game. Thus enemy encounters can be broken down into two kinds in BioShock and one is just more durable.

Whereas in SOMA for example, there is one enemy that functions sort of similarly to Left 4 Dead's witch, there is one that you can't really outrun and can teleport and cut you off and has proximity based detection rather than just seeing. There is one generic type, all the others are "special."

Then there are all of the gameplay segments that people call puzzles and you call pushing buttons. Object interaction to alter the environment to overcome environmental obstacles. More complex and diverse tasks than BioShock's generic shooting since virtually every instance of this is unique, not to mention logical. Interacting with different kinds of machinery, vehicles, computer equipment, electrical power grids, they all impede process like BioShock's enemies but have more involved thinking and player interaction than sitting back and holding LMB to shoot them dead.

Then there is the fact that SOMA is less linear involves more exploration than BioShock, and has more environmental storytelling. But exploring = walking so this doesn't help you see clearly I suppose.

SOMA's environmental interaction is off the charts unlike BioShock, and SOMA has more storytelling techniques including actual dialogue. Not to mention gameplay plays a big role in the storytelling of SOMA, a much bigger role than BioShock's save the children and get a modified ending.

So if SOMA, the game with objectively more involved, diverse, and complex gameplay and more storytelling techniques, is a walking simulator, what does that make the simpler less involved more repetitive BioShock? And thus most other shooters?

This is how you analyze a game. Realistically, SOMA is a survival horror and psychological and somewhat existential horror game.
Edited by boredgunner - 10/3/16 at 9:26pm
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post #112 of 160
Wow boredgunner,great post and explanation of soma so that should close that discussion with the other poster. Picked up talos and played some last night and it def has some neat puzzles that I am sure will get harder but I am enjoying it so far.
post #113 of 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by boredgunner View Post

No, having actual gameplay saves it from that. Walking isn't the purpose and by calling it a walking sim you are devaluing everything else about it, which you probably don't realize since anyone calling a game a "walking simulator" is clearly posting without thinking.

Explain why SOMA is a walking simulator and why BioShock (let's not say BioShock 2 since I never played it) isn't. You walk in both games. The purpose of both games isn't to walk. In both games you do not just walk from start to finish with no resistance or obstacles, unlike Dear Esther which is perhaps the only game deserving of being called a walking simulator. Nope, lots of resistance/obstacles, but in more forms in SOMA than BioShock. In BioShock it is enemies, in SOMA it is more diverse enemies and the environment itself. BioShock has a few segments where the environment takes on this role but it's far simpler than SOMA in this regard.

SOMA has more complex gameplay than BioShock; not mechanically but in tasks. Both are about as simple as a game can get mechanically, pull trigger in BioShock or use a power, interact key in SOMA although SOMA's interact key has a far wider range of uses in-game.

SOMA has stealth, SOMA has lots of enemy encounters and almost every single one is uniquely programmed and designed resulting in different gameplay tactics, more so than BioShock which just has regular enemies (press LMB until dead) and then big daddies which just involve throwing everything including the kitchen sink at them. But then even big daddies get repetitive since they end up being no different later in the game. Thus enemy encounters can be broken down into two kinds in BioShock and one is just more durable.

Whereas in SOMA for example, there is one enemy that functions sort of similarly to Left 4 Dead's witch, there is one that you can't really outrun and can teleport and cut you off and has proximity based detection rather than just seeing. There is one generic type, all the others are "special."

Then there are all of the gameplay segments that people call puzzles and you call pushing buttons. Object interaction to alter the environment to overcome environmental obstacles. More complex and diverse tasks than BioShock's generic shooting since virtually every instance of this is unique, not to mention logical. Interacting with different kinds of machinery, vehicles, computer equipment, electrical power grids, they all impede process like BioShock's enemies but have more involved thinking and player interaction than sitting back and holding LMB to shoot them dead.

Then there is the fact that SOMA is less linear involves more exploration than BioShock, and has more environmental storytelling. But exploring = walking so this doesn't help you see clearly I suppose.

SOMA's environmental interaction is off the charts unlike BioShock, and SOMA has more storytelling techniques including actual dialogue. Not to mention gameplay plays a big role in the storytelling of SOMA, a much bigger role than BioShock's save the children and get a modified ending.

So if SOMA, the game with objectively more involved, diverse, and complex gameplay and more storytelling techniques, is a walking simulator, what does that make the simpler less involved more repetitive BioShock? And thus most other shooters?

This is how you analyze a game. Realistically, SOMA is a survival horror and psychological and somewhat existential horror game.

Fantastic analysis. I couldn't have said it better myself.
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post #114 of 160
SOMA is extremely linear compared to the level design in Bioshock 1 and 2.

The ability to backtrack doesn't make something non-linear. Getting to one point or story point from different approaches makes it non-linear.

Look at the weapon system in the Bioshock games, extremely non-linear ways to kill enemies.

Nothing about SOMA's mechanics is nonlinear.

Puzzles aren't non-linear. Basic door-opening puzzles in games aren't non-linear. Portal and Talos have non-linear puzzles.

The only thing that stands out as great in SOMA are the story, characters, location, and ambiance.

The "mechanics" of exploring around, reading/ listening to logs for clues about the story and to solve puzzles, and running/ hiding from "enemies," is the definition of a walking sim.

I like SOMA, you like SOMA, but you seem to be pointing out the WEAKEST elements of it as the reason to love it.
Edited by umeng2002 - 10/4/16 at 3:57pm
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post #115 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

SOMA is extremely linear compared to the level design in Bioshock 1 and 2.

The ability to backtrack doesn't make something non-linear. Getting to one point or story point from different approaches makes it non-linear.

Look at the weapon system in the Bioshock games, extremely non-linear ways to kill enemies.

Nothing about SOMA's mechanics is nonlinear.

Puzzles aren't non-linear. Basic door-opening puzzles in games aren't non-linear. Portal and Talos have non-linear puzzles.

The only thing that stands out as great in SOMA are the story, characters, location, and ambiance.

The "mechanics" of exploring around, reading/ listening to logs for clues about the story and to solve puzzles, and running/ hiding from "enemies," is the definition of a walking sim.

I like SOMA, you like SOMA, but you seem to be pointing out the WEAKEST elements of it as the reason to love it.

No I'm just pointing out why calling it a walking simulator makes no sense on any level, unless you concede to the notion that BioShock is something even less than a walking simulator because it has simpler, less involved, more repetitive gameplay and enemy design. Both games are totally linear, so what is your point? BioShock is no less linear either.

BioShock does not have "extremely non-linear ways to kill enemies," you just hold LMB until they're dead or shoot explosive barrels or use very simple powers (the same point and shoot design). SOMA provides no less ways to deal with enemies due to its stealth, AI programming that responds to more stimuli in a slightly greater number of ways, and environmental interaction that leads to many ways to set up distractions.

Both games have exploring but SOMA has much more to it and much more of it, both games have "reading/listening to logs" although SOMA has other storytelling methods in addition. You've done nothing to counter any point I've made or to successfully argue why SOMA is a walking simulator but BioShock isn't (or why BioShock isn't something lesser).

It's also clear that the concepts of non-repetitive gameplay and enemy design (almost every single enemy encounter having a uniquely programmed and designed AI, every "puzzle" instance being totally unique although calling them puzzles is just wrong), things that set apart games like SOMA from repetitive run-of-the-mill shooters like BioShock and actual walking simulators, flies right over your head. As does the general concept of gameplay-assisted storytelling, something so few games do but SOMA excels at (Brandon simulation being one of the best examples of it in this game).

So, as I initially said, your argument boils down to, "If a game doesn't have killing or overt puzzles, then it's a walking simulator." This says nothing about the game, as my posts have clearly laid out, it just speaks volumes about the person giving the argument and none of it good (lack of analytical thinking, inability to separate ideas or point out game design concepts or even understand what you're doing within the game and why).
Edited by boredgunner - 10/4/16 at 4:31pm
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post #116 of 160
You're wrong on many levels.

Like people using twisted logic to believe the Star Wars prequels are good movies.
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post #117 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

You're wrong on many levels.

Like people using twisted logic to believe the Star Wars prequels are good movies.

Wrong on many levels yet you can't point out one so instead you provide a random opinion that makes you feel better about yourself.

But this is getting fun. How about this: Define, in your own words, what a walking simulator is. It does appear that I've been looking at this the wrong way, trying to apply the more common, standardized definition of "walking simulator" to you yet you've clearly developed your own. That standardized definition by the way is, "first-person game in which you walk through from start to finish with no resistance/obstacles and no gameplay mechanics or interaction at all aside from literally walking or maybe running."

Through your jumbled ideas I have come up with what seems like your definition, and that is: "A game with enemy encounters and no combat." This is about the only definition you can provide without contradicting everything you've been saying. Or the expanded version, using your own ideas: "Enemy encounters, no combat, and reading/listening to logs." That's paraphrasing what you said above. Let's have a closer look at this.

Why those definitions are stupid and misleading: What does combat or no combat have to do with walking? What do reading/listening to logs, one of many storytelling techniques utilized by SOMA (and one of much fewer in BioShock) have to do with walking? Do you realize that the dialogue between Simon and Catherine takes precedence over the logs anyhow as the logs aren't even mandatory but the dialogue is?

Using the term "walking simulator" shows that your focus is on the act of walking and you're implying that's the main focus of the game. Thus, anyone saying this obviously doesn't at all understand the game. It's foot in mouth syndrome, a term so nonsensical that it's surprising that it's still being used. There are only 1-2 games that can reasonably be called walking simulators, and those are Dear Esther and maybe their latest game, Everybody's Gone to the Rapture. The purpose of these games is to have the player walk through a visually impressive world, like a hike. Some story is told to you but with no storytelling techniques other than narration so the storytelling isn't designed to be revolutionary. No interaction of any kind other than walking and maybe running, no gameplay, no resistance, no obstacles. Walking... through a visually impressive place and being told a story. So walking simulator is still somewhat misleading since the emphasis isn't on the walking but on the environment.

So your idea of "walking simulator" has nothing to do with gameplay complexity or diversity, concepts you've repeatedly demonstrated no ability to grasp. In this case, the proper reaction to your labeling of SOMA as a walking simulator is just to look at you sideways and move on.
Edited by boredgunner - 10/4/16 at 5:20pm
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post #118 of 160
The definitive walking sim, Go Home, has interactions. It was still a walking.

But I don't care if a game is a walking sim as long as it has a good story like Go Home, SOMA, The Vanishing of Eithan Carter, etc.

You're overly concerned about defending the game from being categorized as a walking sim and overlooking the fact that I thing it's a great game.
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post #119 of 160
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

The definitive walking sim, Go Home, has interactions. It was still a walking.

But I don't care if a game is a walking sim as long as it has a good story like Go Home, SOMA, The Vanishing of Eithan Carter, etc.

You're overly concerned about defending the game from being categorized as a walking sim and overlooking the fact that I thing it's a great game.

I wouldn't say I'm overly concerned. The use of horribly misleading and idiotic false labeling doesn't fly by me. All three of those games are totally different yet you call them the same thing, which is again just a clear indication of a lack of analytical thinking and attention span. Leave the categorizing to those more qualified.

Gone Home is not "the definitive walking sim" since it was Dear Esther that led to the term's invention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post

It was still a walking.

Insightful contribution. Also, BioShock is still walking. Almost every game is still walking. You might as well just start posting this image instead of typing words:

tDxe5vk.jpg
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post #120 of 160
You sound like a butt-hurt indie dev, imho.

If the game's primary mode of play is to walk around a click buttons to play logs and call cable cars, etc. it's a walking sim.

What strategy is needed to walk around and explore a world?

Because in Bioshock 1 and 2, I need to freeze Houdini splicers, zap splicers standing in water, use telekinesis against grenades thrown my way, use armor-piercing bullets against Big Daddies (but only after I research them with the camera), manage my money, eve, and health packs, decide if I want to be better at hacking or combat, set traps before an ambush, hack security traps, use insect swarm against large numbers of splicers, upgrade weapons, etc. rolleyes.gif

Meanwhile, you walk around in SOMA and click buttons.... oh and run away from a handful of enemies. There is no real strategy. A real game needs strategy. Deciding plot paths in a non-linear story isn't a strategy or game.

That said, I would recommend SOMA to everyone, but I don't misrepresent the game. If your the type of gamer that doesn't care much about story, ambiance, and philosophical arguments, I wouldn't recommend it.

It's not even a survival horror game.

It's a story-driven exploration game with minor puzzles, a few chase sequences, and an emphasis on a creepy, tense, and intriguing scenario.
Edited by umeng2002 - 10/4/16 at 9:39pm
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