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[TV] Encryption might be the reason we've never heard from or been contacted by Aliens, says Snowden - Page 8

post #71 of 162

I have to laugh. While no malice is intended, I say "How arrogant or naive" to even begin to imagine what communication method some potential "Higher" life form might use. With the age of the stars in the millions of years, a civilization could be orders of magnitude more advanced to the point where point to point communication is not a concept anymore.

 

Others in this thread have already touched on exactly the same so no need to elaborate further.

post #72 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironsight View Post

That was a good read and it makes a lot sense. For some reason the stuff that Bob was saying near the end was reminding me of the movie Contact..

Actually it's very outdated acid trip hippie metaphysical true believer stuff. The net was full of this stuff in the 90's. Enterprise Mission Art Bell kind of stuff. I'm fairly sure I read this a long time ago. Maybe that's why it's so familiar and why I had such a hard time reading it.

I do like his idea that human consciousness is actually the result of alien presence imposing themselves upon our physical beings. I like it in a creative arts fantasy sort of way


The disclaimer :
Quote:
The author claims that almost everything on these pages is entirely fictitious.

You are urged not to believe anything you read here, except the parts that are true.

Actually the philosophy of the conversation more resembles The Man From Earth (2007). Also watch The Signal (2014)
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post #73 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

Hey guys I'm going to apologize in advance b/c this question might sound incredibly stupid. I was raised very religiously and I am still a religious person so I honestly have very little to no education on Evolution and the Big Bang other then basic high school classes. No this isn't an attempt to sway belief from either of those but simply a way for me to better understand.

One thing I've always wondered when reading or talking about alien life is how people always assume that alien life must be either way more evolved/advanced than us, or way below us.

If I'm correct in assuming the Big Bang was the start of absolutely everything and it was that itself that kick started the universe and evolution, then wouldn't it make sense that ALL life anywhere would pretty much be at the same point? What I'm asking is haven't we all had the same amount of time to "evolve/advance"? From my uneducated view it almost seems common sense that even if there is alien life they are probably very similar to us evolution/advancement wise. Now I realize some things can happen that can slow things down, such as the meteorite (or whatever it was) that took out the dinosaurs. Thing is though with space being so amazingly large that would have to be a statistical anomaly right?

I don't know this may have made zero sense so if it's stupid please let me know or enlighten me some on where my thinking is off.

The Big Bang is the start of everything, true. However, everything immediately after the Big Bang was clouds of hydrogen and maybe helium. That was over 13 billion years ago.

Many things had to happen, and not everything happened at the same rate in every area. Star formation happened, many of which were massive stars that lived only a few million to several hundred million years. These stars made the heavy elements, and spread them throughout the universe through supernova. However, these stars usually collapsed into neutron stars or black holes, so the material would have to spread out far away enough and be captured by a young star forming to create the rocky planets as we know it today. Of course, this process is highly variable and takes a lot of time.

Our Sun is approximately 5 billion years old. Humans only began using tools 2.6 million years ago. Much of our scientific advancement was really made in the past 200-300 years.

Based on that, it is far more likely that there are intelligent alien races all across the spectrum, from primitive to highly advanced. Their sun could easily have formed a billion years before or after us, and that would be a significant difference.
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post #74 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

If I'm correct in assuming the Big Bang was the start of absolutely everything and it was that itself that kick started the universe and evolution, then wouldn't it make sense that ALL life anywhere would pretty much be at the same point? What I'm asking is haven't we all had the same amount of time to "evolve/advance"?

We're fairly certain that out of nothingness, exploded everything. There's a lot to suggest this, expansion, background radiation, observing the composition of the oldest galaxies and trying to figure out the predominant elements. As to having the same time to evolve? At one point immediately following the big bang, there was only one form of energy... over time, coalescence and solar/galactic mechanics helped to create most of the elements we know today and supernovas responsible for spreading those elements around.

Our galaxy is one of the newer ones. There are galaxies that are many billions of years older than ours. We can't really comprehend what life evolving in a different manner than we did could even be like. We're carbon based oxygen breathers and we resemble the elemental makeup of the Earth... An alien species could be based off completely different elements. The creation of life itself is still a scientific mystery.

Our limit of first hand knowledge only dates back thousands of years. 100 years ago you were lucky to have light bulbs. Broadcast radio didn't really start until the 20's. We're technological infants in any universal time scale, so any intelligent life that's out there is likely far more advanced than us or likely doesn't yet exist.

There are a lot of different theories about... well, everything. We still don't know how much we don't know. That is, every time we answer a question we ask 5 more. How deep do you want to dig into scientific observation of reality? There is a point in scientific discussion where you have to forego any substantial proof and rely completely on mathematical assertions and pure faith.

A scientific fact is only true until you're smart enough to ask it a question that makes it false. Or something like that. lol
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post #75 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

Hey guys I'm going to apologize in advance b/c this question might sound incredibly stupid. I was raised very religiously and I am still a religious person so I honestly have very little to no education on Evolution and the Big Bang other then basic high school classes. No this isn't an attempt to sway belief from either of those but simply a way for me to better understand.

One thing I've always wondered when reading or talking about alien life is how people always assume that alien life must be either way more evolved/advanced than us, or way below us.

If I'm correct in assuming the Big Bang was the start of absolutely everything and it was that itself that kick started the universe and evolution, then wouldn't it make sense that ALL life anywhere would pretty much be at the same point? What I'm asking is haven't we all had the same amount of time to "evolve/advance"? From my uneducated view it almost seems common sense that even if there is alien life they are probably very similar to us evolution/advancement wise. Now I realize some things can happen that can slow things down, such as the meteorite (or whatever it was) that took out the dinosaurs. Thing is though with space being so amazingly large that would have to be a statistical anomaly right?

I don't know this may have made zero sense so if it's stupid please let me know or enlighten me some on where my thinking is off.
The Big Bang was the start of the current universe in which we reside.
1) There may be other universes outside our universe.
2) Our universe might be a hologram on another universe.
3) There may be other universes within ours that we cannot observe.
...etc.

The numbers and length in time are literally astronomical.

There are over 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ observable stars. We believe that many of them have planets.
The universe is 13.7B years old.
Life began on Earth around 4B years ago.
Life capable of space travel on this planet is less than 100 years old.

So let's say it take on average 4B years for life to take root to space travel on average.

Let's say one species got lucky and did it 0.001% faster. That's still 4000 years... imagine what humans will be in that time (if we survive).

Let's say one planet happen to form around younger star 100M before our Sun..... image what humans could do in just 1M years from now (if we survive)?

Assuming exponential reproduction and conventional space travel through generation ships..... any species could have colonized portions of a galaxy by now.




I would recommend you read about the "Drake Equation" which can be used to estimate the number of alien life.... then read about the Fermi Paradox about where is everyone else?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

The Big Bang is the start of everything, true. However, everything immediately after the Big Bang was clouds of hydrogen and maybe helium. That was over 13 billion years ago.

Many things had to happen, and not everything happened at the same rate in every area. Star formation happened, many of which were massive stars that lived only a few million to several hundred million years. These stars made the heavy elements, and spread them throughout the universe through supernova. However, these stars usually collapsed into neutron stars or black holes, so the material would have to spread out far away enough and be captured by a young star forming to create the rocky planets as we know it today. Of course, this process is highly variable and takes a lot of time.

Our Sun is approximately 5 billion years old. Humans only began using tools 2.6 million years ago. Much of our scientific advancement was really made in the past 200-300 years.

Based on that, it is far more likely that there are intelligent alien races all across the spectrum, from primitive to highly advanced. Their sun could easily have formed a billion years before or after us, and that would be a significant difference.
Hydrogen and helium didn't form immediately after.... the universe had to cool first and there was matter/anti-matter annihilation going.
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post #76 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubbernewb View Post

No offense but some people are 100% sure area 51 has alien craft/alien bodys there
post #77 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfroth View Post

The Big Bang was the start of the current universe in which we reside.
1) There may be other universes outside our universe.
2) Our universe might be a hologram on another universe.
3) There may be other universes within ours that we cannot observe.
...etc.

What's really wild is that over the last decade or more is that evidence pointing towards holographic bubble within a bubble universes is actually growing. It's far more mind boggling to me than particles with weird spin characteristics and multidimensional microfolds.
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post #78 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

Hey guys I'm going to apologize in advance b/c this question might sound incredibly stupid. I was raised very religiously and I am still a religious person so I honestly have very little to no education on Evolution and the Big Bang other then basic high school classes. No this isn't an attempt to sway belief from either of those but simply a way for me to better understand.

One thing I've always wondered when reading or talking about alien life is how people always assume that alien life must be either way more evolved/advanced than us, or way below us.

If I'm correct in assuming the Big Bang was the start of absolutely everything and it was that itself that kick started the universe and evolution, then wouldn't it make sense that ALL life anywhere would pretty much be at the same point? What I'm asking is haven't we all had the same amount of time to "evolve/advance"? From my uneducated view it almost seems common sense that even if there is alien life they are probably very similar to us evolution/advancement wise. Now I realize some things can happen that can slow things down, such as the meteorite (or whatever it was) that took out the dinosaurs. Thing is though with space being so amazingly large that would have to be a statistical anomaly right?

I don't know this may have made zero sense so if it's stupid please let me know or enlighten me some on where my thinking is off.

Different parts of the universe are vastly different ages. The sun and the earth are not the same age as the universe. Some of the older galaxies observed have been dated to around 13 billion years old. Earth formed 4.6 billion years ago.

The reason for this is that as larger stars collapse at the end of their time, the immense forces involved are able to fuse lighter elements like hydrogen into heavier ones like iron, creating dust clouds of raw material. Gravity pulls these together, making new stars and planets. The sun was not the first star to be made from the matter that makes it up. There were likely several larger ones before us.

Life really needs a smaller star than these large ones as they are longer lived. A small star like ours which formed 10 billion years ago would have a 5 billion odd year head start on the sun. It'd be coming to the end of its time, or would have already faded unless it is less massive than the sun.

Another factor is that technology also advances extremely quickly once it gets going. Assume that another world, identical to earth existed, and remained the exact same up until around 2000 years ago, when the Romans figure out how to correctly harness steam power (which they very nearly did), and boot the world into an early industrial revolution. Lets say it takes them another 200 years to reach the stage we were at in the 19th century. By now, that world could have technology 1800 years in advance of our own. In around 1800 years we went from using scrolls to landing men on the moon.

2000 years is however entirely insignificant when compared to the age of the universe and the rate at which it changes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by From someone else 
A scientific fact is only true until you're smart enough to ask it a question that makes it false. Or something like that. lol

Eh.
What separates science from speculation is that you only treat as fact what you can observe, test and measure. The burden of proof is always on the positive claim.
     
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post #79 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by alltoasters View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by From someone else 
A scientific fact is only true until you're smart enough to ask it a question that makes it false. Or something like that. lol

Eh.
What separates science from speculation is that you only treat as fact what you can observe, test and measure. The burden of proof is always on the positive claim.

And fact will stay fact until you find a different way to observe or measure.

The universe is gonna stop expanding, stress causes ulcers, eggs are bad for you, coffee is bad for you, wine is bad for you... pre-dna entomology, evolution... Humans didn't coexist with other primitive species. There can't be life at the very bottom of the ocean. There can't be life miles below the surface. Scientists proclaim all sorts of things and end up having to change or retract "fact" once they learn to ask better questions.
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post #80 of 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiNet View Post

Your basis is known languages on Earth, what makes you think or assume same principal would apply to alien language?

The definition of language is a good place to start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Assuming that it can be picked up, if it is encrypted, it will appear as stronger noise in an area. The transmission waves themselves (again, assuming it is something we can pick up, which at the moment is light-waves) aren't encrypted (seriously, we don't mask a 2.4 GHz wave to be a 5 GHz wave, that's physically impossible).

Spread spectrum, frequency hopping, and other such means of obfuscating signals or making them resistant to jamming attempts can dramatically mitigate this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

This recording, or stronger noise, will appear as an anomaly.

Communication doesn't need to be stronger than noise to be recognized as communication, it just needs to have patterns different from the random noise.

I can distinguish human speech on a poorly received radio transmission even if that speech is not greater in magnitude than the omnipresent static. Hell, I can understand human speech even if the magnitude of the speech is far lower than the magnitude of the static it's buried in, and recognize it as speech at an even lower level. So can you, in all probability. Encryption would make that speech just more static, and you'd probably be none the wiser to the communication that you could be receiving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsumi View Post

Therefore, encryption cannot be a reason why we have not discovered alien transmissions.

Sure it can. If a civilization uses radio waves or other spectra we'd be capable of detecting for, say, two-thousand years, but the overwhelming majority of it is encrypted after a certain point, that would dramatically reduce the time window and number of chances we'd have to recognize any of the signals as communications.

The premise that encryption could be a significant factor in the Fermi Paradox is an extremely sound one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redfroth View Post

Radio communications aren't practical for advanced civilizations. A space faring society would communicate through entanglement at out best guess because the speed of light is too slow for communicating on any scale other than across terrestrial distances.

If they've mastered faster than light travel, there's a safe bet they've mastered faster than light communication first. But then again they're all most likely machines anyway so what would it matter?

We are evidence that it's fully possible to have a technologically advanced civilization, transmitting signals that could eventually be intercepted at interstellar distances, with radio (or other electromagnetic) waves.

Neither Snowden nor the Fermi Paradox are making any presumptions about faster than light travel (which is, as far as we know, impossible).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a nickname View Post

It takes too long to light to get to us so why would alien civilization even bother hiding their communication with back ground noise?

Same reason most of our communications are encrypted. Privacy and economy.

Can't make it too easy to steal free satellite television.

Of course, "too long" is also completely relative, and far sighted species may find it prudent to conceal itself from whatever may be out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

One thing I've always wondered when reading or talking about alien life is how people always assume that alien life must be either way more evolved/advanced than us, or way below us.

It stands to reason, that with human civilization spanning a tiny, tiny, fraction of time on geological/cosmological scales (if you strech out your arm, and your shoulder is the beginning of time, a single stroke of a nail file on your middle finger would erase all of human history), that the odds of extra terrestrial life falling roughly on our level of advancement is much less likely than life that is either less, or more, advanced.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hexa View Post

If I'm correct in assuming the Big Bang was the start of absolutely everything and it was that itself that kick started the universe and evolution, then wouldn't it make sense that ALL life anywhere would pretty much be at the same point?

Our sun didn't exist until the universe was already 9 billion years old and many, many, generations of stars had been born and died across trillions of galaxies. Our own planet has had at least five global mass extinction events in its history, some of which were responsible for 95%+ of all species then existing going extinct. Our own species, in it's phenomenally short history, has suffered population bottlenecks that could well have erased much progress...and had things been a little different in one way or the other, humanity could well have died out.

Evolution, in any of the many forms it can take in nature, is rarely a straight line, and is even less likely to have any foregone conclusion.

Had circumstances been different, humanity could easily have arisen three billion years earlier, three billion years later, or never.
Edited by Blameless - 9/22/15 at 2:11pm
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