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[WCCF] AMD contracts TSMC to produce Zen @ 16nm instead of 14nm @ Globalfoundries (Updated) - Page 4

post #31 of 220
Which means the lump of production and the time spent trying to get the money back from sales has been straight skipped.

Zen is a big change, there have been a lot of comments from AMD pointing it's a step back from automated library design and a more 'traditional' approach to making CPUs. And let's be fair, it stopped going south for AMD the moment they started automating stuff so much (Keller himself said it I believe).
   
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post #32 of 220
Even if Zen is a bit short of the Intel Benchmark, it will still be competitive at their usual price point. Which will boost their sales and make them money.

Its all about competition, because competition=Price Battles and technology improvements.


Im interested in DX12 CPU Benchmarks of Zen vs Skylake.

If Zen does perform well against Skylake will Intel Bring 6 core/8 core down to mainstream prices?

I am hoping AMD pulls this off because if it fails, Intel effectively has license to bend us over and screw us for the next decade.
post #33 of 220
PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT ZEN WILL BE, JUST WHAT I AM HOPING

*chanting* please be Ivy Bridge IPC with 8 cores and 4GHz and equal or better TDP/Power < $300

I would be ALL over that, especially if they released a server grade Zen CPU with those specs, I really want to build my next system with server components
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post #34 of 220
I was hoping to hear that this move would allow AMD to produce Zen in a more aggressive time frame than previously announced, but I guess that's unlikely. This is probably more of a scramble to maintain the Q4 2016 time frame.

Any chance AMD will produce Zen at both TSMC and Globalfoundries? That would be interesting for us to compare 16nm vs 14nm on the same part.
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post #35 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadRabbit View Post

Yeah, no. There is just no way.

Based on Passmark numbers, which as we all know, do not represent integer performance, which is oftentimes important in gaming. So agreed.
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post #36 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by maarten12100 View Post

No way Take or pay. AMD has no choice I think. They are at the mercy of GF and Samsung.

Take or pay is a issue. However it depends how far behind Global Foundries is now. It may make more sense to launch Zen on time with TSMC and pay the take or pay fees instead of waiting for Global Foundries and running out of cash. Also, if they were smart this time around they should have amended the contract, if Global Foundries can't deliver on time take or pay is voided.
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post #37 of 220
Quote:
According to the aggregate single threaded PassMark database

Skylake is way higher than 40% over that CPU for ST perf
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post #38 of 220
So here is a theory:

AMD is having trouble getting good yields and proper performance and MHz out of Zen on Global Foundry's 14nm node, partly due to the node being meant more for lower speed stuff and partly from needing to ramp up better and tweak more. So with the product having issues and AMD knowing it needs to switch, that would bring a setback in both the design since it is architecturally designed for different tools already and sacrifices will have to be made to port it over to a larger node and from the different tools. The main architect leaves because the design has to be changed so much and his vision for the product just isnt feasible any more. As lead architect of the entire Zen project and being involved in all the design himself, Jim Keller definitely knew about the node problems and needing to switch. Pretty strong indications that the product will have quite a few issues when we finally see it



We knew quite a bit about the 14nm FF node from Global Foundries, does anyone have some good info on TSMC's 16nm node? I sure hope there is a different HP node specifically designed for CPUs there, because the only 16nm node I know about from TSMC was made for GPUs which wont quite work out so great for a high speed CPU design...


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerPowered View Post

Yeah but isn't the Zen 16 Cores with Hyperthreading? I'd say its possible with MOAR CORES!

Plus im pretty sure Intel has purposefully been holding back improvements waiting on AMD to make a move.

Highly doubtful. There *may* be a 16 core processor for server that is two of the 8 cores glued together, and there was one rumor of a massive 16 core APU with HBM on package and everything, also going to be meant for server. There is probably only about a 5% chance we will see a 16 core CPU in the desktop space.
Edited by EniGma1987 - 9/25/15 at 8:09am
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post #39 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

There was also no way of Intel ever making a CPU faster than the A64 after the Pentium 4/D...

Agreed. I don't think Nvidia can ever top ATI's efficiency after the Fermi disaster either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

The only reason why Intel was able to recover so fast after their downfall with Netburst, is because they had a highly efficient core design ready (P6M), the money and the fabs. AMD meanwhile neither got a design they can or even want to modify (in the same way Intel did with P6M), the money or the fabs.

False. AMD is in the exact same boat as Intel circa 10 years ago.
  • High-power architecture is inherently awful? Check.
  • Still trying to squeeze as much out of it for the time being? Check.
  • Actively developing a separate low-power architecture? Check.
  • Using that low-power architecture as a basis for the new, not-terrible high-power architecture? Check.
  • Using a design more similar to the previous good high-power architecture? Check.

Identical situations. Intel realized the P4 sucked, they went back to a P3-derived design, and much of it was based on the low-power P6M. AMD realized Bulldozer sucked, is going back to a K10-derived (IIRC) design, and much of it will be based on Jaguar/Puma. The only difference is that AMD is at TSMC's and/or GloFo's mercy when it comes to fabs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

Highly doubtful. There *may* be a 16 core processor for server that is two of the 8 cores glued together, and there was one rumor of a massive 16 core APU with HBM on package and everything, also going to be meant for server. There is probably only about a 5% chance we will see a 16 core CPU in the desktop space.

Probably not true. AMD's new design is actually pretty smart. Cores are arranged in quad-core modules. This shouldn't be confused with a Bulldozer-style CMT module though - they're fully independent cores - since it's more like prebuilt "blocks" that can easily make large chips. I guess it's a bit like a shader engine in a GPU? I dunno how to describe it, since I'm not aware of any current processor using a similar design. Well, there's the PS4's and Xbone's APUs with two quad-core blocks of Jaguar cores. It's likely less efficient than Intel's ringbuses for their massive Xeons, but it's surely cheaper to design.

The reason we don't have a 5M/10C or larger Vishera die is thanks to die size and yields. Vishera is pretty big at 320mm2 or so. A 5M/10C die would be 25% bigger at 400mm2 and an 8M/16C die would be a massive 640mm2. That's assuming that the growth is linear, which it wouldn't necessarily be, but still, it's a big die. On the other hand, with 14nm, the transistor density should be on the order of twice as dense. With that same ~300-350mm2 die (Thuban's six cores were on the upper end of that, 346mm2 IIRC), they should be able to have a 16 core die give or take a quad-core block fairly easily. Using a G34-style dual-die chip, a 32-core CPU using SMT is very easily doable.

And they need that, certainly. Skylake is coming with 28C/56T dies. If AMD does a very, very good job with their SMT implementation, then they might just tie it in fully multithreaded applications.
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post #40 of 220
I am kind of laughing at everyone in here saying it isn't possible. Just yesterday it was being discussed....

Jim Keller came back for ~3 years, and was given the budget, team, and time, to create a ground up processor. Nothing AMD has now can be used as any gauge right now for what Zen will be. It is entirely possible that not only do they catch Intel, but beat Intel.

People are acting like AMD hasn't done it before.

rolleyes.gif
Edited by PostalTwinkie - 9/25/15 at 10:27am
    
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