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[WCCF] AMD contracts TSMC to produce Zen @ 16nm instead of 14nm @ Globalfoundries (Updated) - Page 5

post #41 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by CynicalUnicorn View Post

Agreed. I don't think Nvidia can ever top ATI's efficiency after the Fermi disaster either.
False. AMD is in the exact same boat as Intel circa 10 years ago.
  • High-power architecture is inherently awful? Check.
  • Still trying to squeeze as much out of it for the time being? Check.
  • Actively developing a separate low-power architecture? Check.
  • Using that low-power architecture as a basis for the new, not-terrible high-power architecture? Check.
  • Using a design more similar to the previous good high-power architecture? Check.

Identical situations. Intel realized the P4 sucked, they went back to a P3-derived design, and much of it was based on the low-power P6M. AMD realized Bulldozer sucked, is going back to a K10-derived (IIRC) design, and much of it will be based on Jaguar/Puma. The only difference is that AMD is at TSMC's and/or GloFo's mercy when it comes to fabs.
Probably not true. AMD's new design is actually pretty smart. Cores are arranged in quad-core modules. This shouldn't be confused with a Bulldozer-style CMT module though - they're fully independent cores - since it's more like prebuilt "blocks" that can easily make large chips. I guess it's a bit like a shader engine in a GPU? I dunno how to describe it, since I'm not aware of any current processor using a similar design. Well, there's the PS4's and Xbone's APUs with two quad-core blocks of Jaguar cores. It's likely less efficient than Intel's ringbuses for their massive Xeons, but it's surely cheaper to design.
.

Identical situations?
So from now on 10 equals 1 (ratio of assets in 2004/2013) and 4 equals 0 (fabs).
At the moment AMD doesn´t even have a proven manufacturing process to put Zen on, even if the design is otherwise succesful.

While it is entirely possible to make a great design with limited resources, it is certainly much harder than with virtually unlimited resources Intel had / has. On limited budget there is absolutely no room for trial and error (try different things just the sake of trying if it works), which often is the only way to get really big.

Core 2 which was Intel´s ultimate salvation, is a direct descendant of Merom < Yonah < Banias / Dothan < Pentium 3 (P6/M).

Intel didn´t have to make a clean slate design to pull themselves out of the hole they were in with Netburst. They made several modifications to their existing design and that´s what they have been doing ever since. Even with Skylake.

Meanwhile AMD has no design which could be modified to achieve a similar result. During the last four years they have made several modifications to their 15h µarch, but with a very little success. No modifications can transform the 15h or 16h µarchs into a µarch AMD so badly needs just to survive. Anything less than a clean slate design was never a real option for AMD.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

People are acting like AMD hasn't done it before.

rolleyes.gif

True, they´ve done it before.
But only because Intel failed so hard at the same time.

It sounds harsh because K7 & K8 were great and innovative designs, however despite that it is a cold fact.
Edited by The Stilt - 9/25/15 at 11:37am
post #42 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

True, they´ve done it before.
But only because Intel failed so hard at the same time.

It sounds harsh because K7 & K8 were great and innovative designs, however despite that it is a cold fact.

So your argument is that AMD did it before, not because they are capable of doing it (especially with people like Jim), but because Intel failed? AMD was only considered successful, not on its own merits, but because of Intel's shortcomings.

That is ludicrous.
    
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post #43 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

So your argument is that AMD did it before, not because they are capable of doing it (especially with people like Jim), but because Intel failed? AMD was only considered successful, not on its own merits, but because of Intel's shortcomings.

That is ludicrous.

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king".

JK is a great engineer, however even he cannot turn water into wine.

There is a huge cult of personality thing going on around JK and it is getting ridiculous. Soon there will probably be stories about how he completed an 18 hole golf course with 17 swings or how he made his first CPU design at age of four. Most likely he had teeth in his mouth and could walk too on the same day he was born. You´ll probably get what I mean. This kind of stuff you hear from North Korea.

Not to disrespect JK or depreciate his great career in the slightest of course smile.gif
post #44 of 220
Jim Keller is a microarchitecture god, sir! mad.gif



tongue.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

Intel didn´t have to make a clean slate design to pull themselves out of the hole they were in with Netburst. They made several modifications to their existing design and that´s what they have been doing ever since. Even with Skylake.

Meanwhile AMD has no design which could be modified to achieve a similar result. During the last four years they have made several modifications to their 15h µarch, but with a very little success. No modifications can transform the 15h or 16h µarchs into a µarch AMD so badly needs just to survive. Anything less than a clean slate design was never a real option for AMD.

But... That's... What? Yeah, 15h is dead. We know that. That's old new. Similarly, Intel killed Netburst totally after trying and failing to get a good design out of it.

Intel had an existing design to fall back on. Right, the low-power optimized P3 derivative, the P6 architecture. They took that and turned it into Core, and they also used a number of designs found in the P4 when beneficial. Similarly, AMD is taking their own low-power optimized K8 derivative, Jaguar, and using that as a basis for Zen. IIRC Zen is using a scaled-up Jaguar pipeline. It's taking the best parts of that in addition to the best parts of Bulldozer and its offspring.

AMD hasn't started from a clean slate, not entirely, because they don't really need to. Jaguar is a pretty fantastic little core, especially when you know the backstory. Very little money invested into it, still 28nm, and it trades blows with Intel's competitors. Scale it up, stick it on 14nm and, while it won't be the absolute fastest chip in terms of frequency, it should do very well at 3.1+GHz. (It was confirmed that it will run closer to 4GHz than 2GHz FWIW.)
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post #45 of 220
Hey guy just saying...

If chinesse apple and random company can build arm cpu that can compete... Why do amd with more than 20 years of cpu knowledge could not?


Except budget but even then


Samsung as more money than apple and their soc are worst than apple
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post #46 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

True, they´ve done it before.
But only because Intel failed so hard at the same time.

It sounds harsh because K7 & K8 were great and innovative designs, however despite that it is a cold fact.

So your argument is that AMD did it before, not because they are capable of doing it (especially with people like Jim), but because Intel failed? AMD was only considered successful, not on its own merits, but because of Intel's shortcomings.

That is ludicrous.

I think he meant that if you were going in a Ferrari and him in a bullock cart in a race to the finish, and then you bust you transmission before the finish line, and he wins. It does not mean that he had a great plan of running in the race, but rather you were out of luck:p
post #47 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Missed the part in the WCCF Tech article where they claimed that Zen will be on par IPC wise with Skylake:

Yeaaaaah, no.
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post #48 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stilt View Post

True, they´ve done it before.
But only because Intel failed so hard at the same time.

It sounds harsh because K7 & K8 were great and innovative designs, however despite that it is a cold fact.


Well, this time around Intel doesn't have to fail, they've just come up against a hard size limit and it's taking time to research a new method around it, giving AMD time to catch up on Silicon. However I wonder how things will pan out once a new chip type is produced to get around the 10 nm wall.
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post #49 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerPowered View Post

Plus im pretty sure Intel has purposefully been holding back improvements waiting on AMD to make a move.

I don't think this is the case. Intel is just directing efforts in a direction that they are facing competition in, namely IGPs and HPC coprocessors.

Real x86 CPU competition from AMD could inspire them to shift some of their focus back to improving their cores, but I do not believe Intel is deliberately holding back improvements. That's not a wise development move in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeerPowered View Post

If Zen does perform well against Skylake will Intel Bring 6 core/8 core down to mainstream prices?

I would expect market inertia to prevent this from happening right away. AMD would probably need two or three generations of highly competitive products.

Plenty of people stuck with Intel well after AMD had parts of superior value, then some of the same people stuck with AMD after Intel again became the superior choice for their needs. In general, people are slow to react, and focus more on branding than actual merit.
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post #50 of 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by bonami2 View Post

Hey guy just saying...

If chinesse apple and random company can build arm cpu that can compete... Why do amd with more than 20 years of cpu knowledge could not?


Except budget but even then


Samsung as more money than apple and their soc are worst than apple

Because microprocessor design is really, really hard. Brain surgery? Piece of cake. Rocket science? Really easy. CPU design? Everything put together probably makes it the most complicated undertaking in human history. And yet, companies like AMD and Intel can churn out new designs on a very frequent basis.

As for the Chinese company, do you mean Rockchip? They aren't making their own CPUs. They're using ARM's already-existing Cortex designs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boinz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

Missed the part in the WCCF Tech article where they claimed that Zen will be on par IPC wise with Skylake:

Yeaaaaah, no.

C'mon. It's one thing to doubt whether or not a claim is true. But it's another thing entirely to doubt that WCCF actually said it!

They almost certainly did, actually. Whether or not it's true is very different, as WCCF and truth are often not the same.
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