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[The Register] Smartphone passcodes (but not fingerprints) protected by the Fifth Amendment – US court - Page 2

post #11 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by littledonny View Post

Excellent response. Are you an attorney?
I'm not even a high school graduate.

The constitution isn't complex, and neither are human rights. It's common sense. When a person decides not to be ruled by their emotions (fear, for instance, is a good example of why we're destroying our rights,) I think it becomes very obvious why the constitution is what it is. They're the rights I would want to defend myself from power.

The first thing people want is to be free. To be left alone. To not be victim to another person's will.
To have this, you first need to refrain from imposing your will upon others.
Those who don't do the above, depending on the implications of how badly they infringe upon another person's will, need to be reprimanded to help return society to function as freely as possible.
In order to serve that justice, you need to (in essence) commit the "crime" of infringing upon the suspects rights. So, before granting that power to someone, you need to involve the community, as to return the power to the people for an action of the government.
Judge, jury, warrants. Peer reviewed processes.

That's what America is supposed to be.

Instead, the lazy and cowardly have helped a corrupted government skew the context of all our rights, by pretending it's different due to technological mediums of communication, or use of social programs, etc.
Hopefully people will get their heads on straight and start properly asserting that technology does not change the fundamental reasons for our human rights.
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post #12 of 57
So basically, using a password on your devices is an exploit to hide information from law enforcement. Got it.
post #13 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by littledonny View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.
It's a reasonable call. If someone were being tortured or blackmailed, under accusation of terrorism, for instance, you would need the 5th to prevent their exploitation. Perhaps they're being tortured/blackmailed to reveal the password for their phone, because the official aims to access it.
I'm not saying this is a situation happening, but that is what the 5th is intended to protect us against and it is essential to observe these rights in any context, in order to preserve them.
A fingerprint, on the other hand, isn't something you'd torture someone to attain. It is evidence, like a fingerprint or DNA. In a court of law, with a warrant, it should be accessible. However, that's not to say that the contents of the phone should be entirely accessible.

Again, warrants.

Law and technology don't conflict each other as much as we're being conditioned to believe. We have rights to privacy, and rights to protection against corruption. They apply until we're caught in an act that warrants reasonable suspicious. That's when the government can get a (there's that word again,) warrant to infringe upon your rights; only when you have done something to make it necessary.

Excellent response.
Agreed.
    
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post #14 of 57
Well that's A bit daft isn't it ...
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post #15 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpenguinxx View Post

So basically, using a password on your devices is an exploit to hide information from law enforcement. Got it.

Not an exploit - it is your right not to incriminate yourself. In the same way as you don't have to answer a question that would incriminate you, you don't have to provide information that would allow access to evidence of your guilt. An analogy - it isn't actually a crime to refuse to tell the police where you buried the bodies...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaistledine View Post

Well that's A bit daft isn't it ...

If they made it your right not to provide fingerprints to unlock your phone under the 5th amendment on the basis that it may incriminate you, then people are going to argue that providing your fingerprints as a means of identifying yourself is protected under the 5th amendment. Say goodbye to a whole host of evidence.
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post #16 of 57
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The Supreme Court has held that "a witness may have a reasonable fear of prosecution and yet be innocent of any wrongdoing. The privilege serves to protect the innocent who otherwise might be ensnared by ambiguous circumstances.
It's a reasonable call. If someone were being tortured or blackmailed, under accusation of terrorism, for instance, you would need the 5th to prevent their exploitation. Perhaps they're being tortured/blackmailed to reveal the password for a phone, and knowledge of that password proves their guilt. Perhaps it's not their phone. Perhaps, whatever, it doesn't matter. You can't force people to talk, because going that route necessitates ways of finding ways to force people to talk when they refuse.
I'm not saying this is a situation happening, but that is what the 5th is intended to protect us against and it is essential to observe these rights in any context, in order to preserve them.
A fingerprint, on the other hand, isn't something you'd torture someone to attain. It is evidence, like a fingerprint or DNA. In a court of law, with a warrant, it should be accessible. However, that's not to say that the contents of the phone should be entirely accessible.

Again, warrants.

Law and technology don't conflict each other as much as we're being conditioned to believe. We have rights to privacy, and rights to protection against corruption. They apply until we're caught in an act that warrants reasonable suspicious. That's when the government can get a (there's that word again,) warrant to infringe upon your rights; only when you have done something to make it necessary.


I get what you are saying but if the device contains data the will incriminate that person wouldn't that be a violation of the 5th Amendment. You are being forced to hand over information that will implicate you in a crime. The very act of giving law enforcement access to anything, whether it be secured by a password or fingerprint, that will implicate you in the crime you are being charged with is the very definition of self incrimination.
post #17 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post

Not an exploit - it is your right not to incriminate yourself. In the same way as you don't have to answer a question that would incriminate you, you don't have to provide information that would allow access to evidence of your guilt. An analogy - it isn't actually a crime to refuse to tell the police where you buried the bodies...
If they made it your right not to provide fingerprints to unlock your phone under the 5th amendment on the basis that it may incriminate you, then people are going to argue that providing your fingerprints as a means of identifying yourself is protected under the 5th amendment. Say goodbye to a whole host of evidence.

I don't know where I was going with that last statement.

What if you use your fingerprint to unlock your car? Are police allowed to search your car in that case? Are police allowed to search everything that can be opened using a fingerprint?
Edited by xxpenguinxx - 9/30/15 at 9:59am
post #18 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpenguinxx View Post

I don't know where I was going with that last statement.

What if you use your fingerprint to unlock your car? Are police allowed to search your car in that case? Are police allowed to search everything that can be opened using a fingerprint?

But they can search your car or house with a warrant and you cannot prevent them from doing so. They will even break the door if you don't give them a key, etc. If you think about it providing your finger prints (as has been done for a very long time) could also be argued as incriminating yourself, e.g. if they are found at the scene.

This is one of those situations where two ways of looking at it come to radically different conclusions and it isn't obvious which way is constitutionally appropriate.

I like Mookster's point of view, provide the maximum evidence for the court while eliminating any incentive to torture suspects.
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post #19 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxpenguinxx View Post

I don't know where I was going with that last statement.

What if you use your fingerprint to unlock your car? Are police allowed to search your car in that case? Are police allowed to search everything that can be opened using a fingerprint?

You're still forgetting the due process here: law enforcement is still required to acquire a warrant before any of those things are accessible to them.
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post #20 of 57
Don't use Touch ID to begin with?
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [The Register] Smartphone passcodes (but not fingerprints) protected by the Fifth Amendment – US court