Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [The Register] Smartphone passcodes (but not fingerprints) protected by the Fifth Amendment – US court
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[The Register] Smartphone passcodes (but not fingerprints) protected by the Fifth Amendment – US court - Page 4

post #31 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by littledonny View Post

This ruling makes sense to anyone with a cursory understanding of US Constitutional law.

If you don't understand it and haven't studied it, your opinion isn't worth posting.

The idea that you need to be educated and qualified in a certain position in order to make a valid opinion needs to stop. I don't need to be a car mechanic to discern that my car is messed up when it doesn't turn on. rolleyes.gif
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-6300HQ Dell Proprietary 4GB Nvidia GTX 960M Samsung 12GB (1x8GB 1x4GB) DDR3L 1600 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
256GB SanDisk M.2 SSD 1TB HGST 7.2k HDD Custom Cooling by Dell Solutions Windows 10 Home 64-Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
15.6" 1920x1080 IPS Screen Dell 130w PSU Logitech G602 Wireless 
Mouse Pad
Xtrac 'Ripper' Mouse Pad 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7-2760QM Toshiba Qosmio X775 Nvidia 1.5GB GTX 560M 8GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
120GB Samsung 830 SSD + 1TB HGST 7200RPM HDD CD/DVD-RW Stock Windows 10 Home 64-Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
17.3" - 1600x900 Standard backlit 180w Power Adapter Logitech G500s 
Audio
Harmon/Kardon Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
     
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i5-6300HQ Dell Proprietary 4GB Nvidia GTX 960M Samsung 12GB (1x8GB 1x4GB) DDR3L 1600 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
256GB SanDisk M.2 SSD 1TB HGST 7.2k HDD Custom Cooling by Dell Solutions Windows 10 Home 64-Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
15.6" 1920x1080 IPS Screen Dell 130w PSU Logitech G602 Wireless 
Mouse Pad
Xtrac 'Ripper' Mouse Pad 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7-2760QM Toshiba Qosmio X775 Nvidia 1.5GB GTX 560M 8GB DDR3 1333 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
120GB Samsung 830 SSD + 1TB HGST 7200RPM HDD CD/DVD-RW Stock Windows 10 Home 64-Bit 
MonitorKeyboardPowerMouse
17.3" - 1600x900 Standard backlit 180w Power Adapter Logitech G500s 
Audio
Harmon/Kardon Onboard 
  hide details  
Reply
post #32 of 57
I'll bite off my fingertip! Ha ha, that will show them!
post #33 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatsquare View Post

The problem with that argument is that being fingerprinted by the police is for identification purposes and the results of being fingerprinted is having a record of who you are. Giving prints to unlock personal information beyond identity is an entirely different utilization and to force people through the use of their fingerprints to access information they otherwise have the right not to reveal is information which could not be discerned by the mere image of that fingerprint.

The courts said you are wrong over a year ago.

Also, the 5th Amendment doesn't apply here, because YOU, as a human being, are NOT testifying against yourself, you are just using your fingerprint, which you leave all over the planet ever single day, to unlock a device that is NOT YOU and will yield evidence against you. It's the same thing as saying that the police can not go into your house to gather evidence against you (like a bloody knife or a kilo bag of cocaine, just because there is a lock on your front door.
post #34 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

A warrant must be issued prior to search and seizure, as per the fourth amendment. You're wrong in two assertions: they do not have a legal right to your fingerprint or DNA sample upon entering custody and they cannot do whatever they please with it. That fingerprint is protected by your fourth amendment right. There is some "new" conflicting legislature on this, but it still states that if you refuse they need to get approval from a court. Your constitutional rights are supreme.

The fourth also protects you from search and seizure of your effects, and should surely protect your phone considering it explicitly states that they cannot take your "papers." If they want to take your phone and your fingerprints, they need a warrant for both.

DNA is a different story. It is not a means to ID you. Police will need a warrant for DNA.
Yes, they need a warrant for the phone. That is not in-dispute in the op. Once they have the warrant, can they use the fingerprints they already have to unlock your phone? Yes, they can. Just like they can hack or guess your password to your computer after the get a warrant for it.

Once you are in custody, they have the right to ID you. Sorry. And they can run that ID against anything they want. If you refuse to give your finger prints. Three things will happen.

1.) You will be held until you are force in front of a judge. The judge will order you to give up your finger prints. There has never been a case in which a judge has denied the police the right to take fingerprints.

2.) You will then be charged with resisting arrest and obstruction of justice.

3.) Failure to comply with the judges order will get you fines and jail time until you do so.

You ready for the kick in the head. Lets say that you have a key lockbox. The police find the key in your hand. They can use that key to unlock the box. Just like the can use your fingerprint, right next to the key, to unlock your phone.
The Guppy
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 980x Ga-x58a-ud3r rev.2 460 gtx Sli 16gb 
Hard DrivePowerCase
Samsung f3 Corsair TX950W Haf 932 
  hide details  
Reply
The Guppy
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 980x Ga-x58a-ud3r rev.2 460 gtx Sli 16gb 
Hard DrivePowerCase
Samsung f3 Corsair TX950W Haf 932 
  hide details  
Reply
post #35 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mookster View Post

The fourth also protects you from search and seizure of your effects, and should surely protect your phone considering it explicitly states that they cannot take your "papers." If they want to take your phone and your fingerprints, they need a warrant for both.

Once you are in custody, the 4th doesn't apply the way you think it does. Do you honestly think that when police arrest you they do not search you and take your pocket knife, gun, drugs, and everything else you have before they lock you up in jail?

They do not need a warrant for your finger prints, they never have (not as far as I've been alive, which is a LONG time). As far as them needing to get a warrant for DNA, you are also wrong. See: Maryland v King (US Supreme Court ruling)

Sorry, you are wrong. Trust me, I was a state trooper for 7 years.


Here is a little article for you and others, it is in laymen terms, not legalese.

Just like fingerprints: Supreme Court says police can take DNA from arrestees without warrants
Quote:
"Taking and analyzing a cheek swab of the arrestee DNA is, like fingerprinting and photographing, a legitimate police booking procedure that is reasonable under the Fourth Amendment," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote for the court's five-justice majority. The ruling backed a Maryland law allowing DNA swabbing of people arrested for serious crimes.

Edited by 47 Knucklehead - 10/3/15 at 9:53am
post #36 of 57
Lower court ruling is a lower court ruling. It's likely this will escalate, but a whole bunch of stuff has to happen first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thegreatsquare View Post

The problem with that argument is that being fingerprinted by the police is for identification purposes and the results of being fingerprinted is having a record of who you are. Giving prints to unlock personal information beyond identity is an entirely different utilization and to force people through the use of their fingerprints to access information they otherwise have the right not to reveal is information which could not be discerned by the mere image of that fingerprint.

^ this is the real issue.
The Big Ugly 2.5
(13 items)
 
Spectre x360
(7 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600k Asus P8P67 B3 MSI GTX 1080 Ti 16GB Corsair XMS3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB Barracuda 7200.12 1TB Hitachi 7K3000 2TB Pioneer BDR-206D 
OSMonitorPowerCase
W7 Pro x64 Dell U3415W Corsair AX850 Corsair 600T 
Mouse
Logitech G500 
CPURAMHard DriveOS
i7 6500U 8GB DDL3L 256GB M.2  Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardCase
2560 x 1440 Touchscreen Awesome! Aluminum Billet 
  hide details  
Reply
The Big Ugly 2.5
(13 items)
 
Spectre x360
(7 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 2600k Asus P8P67 B3 MSI GTX 1080 Ti 16GB Corsair XMS3 1600 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 850 Pro 512GB Barracuda 7200.12 1TB Hitachi 7K3000 2TB Pioneer BDR-206D 
OSMonitorPowerCase
W7 Pro x64 Dell U3415W Corsair AX850 Corsair 600T 
Mouse
Logitech G500 
CPURAMHard DriveOS
i7 6500U 8GB DDL3L 256GB M.2  Windows 10 
MonitorKeyboardCase
2560 x 1440 Touchscreen Awesome! Aluminum Billet 
  hide details  
Reply
post #37 of 57
I have always used passcodes to protect my stuff.
Even with my new S6 Edge Plus, which is the second device I have had that has biometric security.

Out of curiosity, does this ruling include the "pattern" style passcodes? You know the ones where you trace out a shape and it unlocks the device?
Just another 900D
(32 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 4770K MSI Z87 Mpower MAX EVA GTX 980Ti SC EVGA GTX 980Ti SC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Gskill Ripjaws X Samsung 840 EVO WD Blue Crucial MX100 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Crucial MX100  NONE ATM EK Supremecy Acetal/Copper Tons of Black Bitspower 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP EK CoolStream 480 XT Series EK CoolStream 240 XT Series 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Titan X EK CoolStream 420 XTX Series EK RES X3 250 Primochill Advanced LRT Clear 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Mayhems Pastel Yellow Win 7 64 Bit ASUS PB278Q  Qnix QX2710LED @ 96Hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2(in process of full sleev... 900D Corsair M65 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Razer Creative Soundblaster Z  Schitt Valhalla Phillips Fidelio X1 
  hide details  
Reply
Just another 900D
(32 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel 4770K MSI Z87 Mpower MAX EVA GTX 980Ti SC EVGA GTX 980Ti SC 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Gskill Ripjaws X Samsung 840 EVO WD Blue Crucial MX100 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingCooling
Crucial MX100  NONE ATM EK Supremecy Acetal/Copper Tons of Black Bitspower 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP VPP655 PWM w/ EK D5 XTOP EK CoolStream 480 XT Series EK CoolStream 240 XT Series 
CoolingCoolingCoolingCooling
EK Titan X EK CoolStream 420 XTX Series EK RES X3 250 Primochill Advanced LRT Clear 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
Mayhems Pastel Yellow Win 7 64 Bit ASUS PB278Q  Qnix QX2710LED @ 96Hz 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair K90 EVGA SuperNOVA 1300 G2(in process of full sleev... 900D Corsair M65 
Mouse PadAudioAudioAudio
Razer Creative Soundblaster Z  Schitt Valhalla Phillips Fidelio X1 
  hide details  
Reply
post #38 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imglidinhere View Post

The idea that you need to be educated and qualified in a certain position in order to make a valid opinion needs to stop. I don't need to be a car mechanic to discern that my car is messed up when it doesn't turn on. rolleyes.gif

No, what needs to stop is the proliferation of uneducated laymen who insist they know better than mechanics. Your reply makes obvious the group to which you belong.
Overkill
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 5820k @ 4.625Ghz ASUS Rampage V Extreme GTX 1080 Ti 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS 3200Mhz CL14 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Intel 750 400GB Samsung 850 Pro 512GB Samsung 850 EVO 500GB WD Black 4TB 7200RPM 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Hitachi 2TB 7200RPM Corsair H80i GT Windows 10 Professional Acer Predator X34 3440x1440 100hz IPS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Razer BlackWidow Chroma Corsair RM1000i SilverStone RV02 Razer DeathAdder 3G 
AudioAudioAudio
TEAC HA-501 HRT Music Streamer II+ DAC Sennheiser HD650 
  hide details  
Reply
Overkill
(19 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 5820k @ 4.625Ghz ASUS Rampage V Extreme GTX 1080 Ti 32GB G.Skill RIPJAWS 3200Mhz CL14 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
Intel 750 400GB Samsung 850 Pro 512GB Samsung 850 EVO 500GB WD Black 4TB 7200RPM 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Hitachi 2TB 7200RPM Corsair H80i GT Windows 10 Professional Acer Predator X34 3440x1440 100hz IPS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Razer BlackWidow Chroma Corsair RM1000i SilverStone RV02 Razer DeathAdder 3G 
AudioAudioAudio
TEAC HA-501 HRT Music Streamer II+ DAC Sennheiser HD650 
  hide details  
Reply
post #39 of 57
Biometrics are identification not authentication. Self-dentification is not protected as far as police/court/authority go.

Protip: Use a password or other means of protection when protecting... you don't use your username as your password do you?
IntelAsylum R2.1
(14 items)
 
M11xR2
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 2500k ASRock Z77 Extreme6 MSI GTX 970 GAMING 4G 16GB Ripjaw X 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOS
R0: 2x1TB WD Se Samsung 840 EVO LG UH12LS28 BDD Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell E2414H x2 M$ Sidewinder x4 Seasonic 600W CM HAF 932A 
MouseMouse Pad
Logitec M705 MouseMat 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7 GT335m 1gb 4gb ddr3 Sandisk 128GB SSD 
OS
Windows/Linux/Depends 
  hide details  
Reply
IntelAsylum R2.1
(14 items)
 
M11xR2
(13 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 2500k ASRock Z77 Extreme6 MSI GTX 970 GAMING 4G 16GB Ripjaw X 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveOS
R0: 2x1TB WD Se Samsung 840 EVO LG UH12LS28 BDD Windows 7 Ultimate x64 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell E2414H x2 M$ Sidewinder x4 Seasonic 600W CM HAF 932A 
MouseMouse Pad
Logitec M705 MouseMat 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i7 GT335m 1gb 4gb ddr3 Sandisk 128GB SSD 
OS
Windows/Linux/Depends 
  hide details  
Reply
post #40 of 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVenom View Post

Protip: Use a password or other means of protection when protecting... you don't use your username as your password do you?
In terms of security, that's not a spectacular analogy, lol.
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 6700k 4.5 GHz 1.3v Asus Z170i MSI 980Ti 1490/7760 MHz G.skill DDR4 8 GB x2 3733 MHz 15-15-15-35-1 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB Crucial M4 256 GB NH-C14S Windows 10 Student 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HP 27ES Cooler Master Quick Fire TK Corsair SF600 Fractal Core 500 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G703 Zowie G TF-X Fiio E17 v1 Sennheiser HD 598 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 6700k 4.5 GHz 1.3v Asus Z170i MSI 980Ti 1490/7760 MHz G.skill DDR4 8 GB x2 3733 MHz 15-15-15-35-1 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 850 EVO 1 TB Crucial M4 256 GB NH-C14S Windows 10 Student 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
HP 27ES Cooler Master Quick Fire TK Corsair SF600 Fractal Core 500 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
Logitech G703 Zowie G TF-X Fiio E17 v1 Sennheiser HD 598 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Technology and Science News
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [The Register] Smartphone passcodes (but not fingerprints) protected by the Fifth Amendment – US court