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[Various] Feds investigating if Google’s Android violates antitrust rules - Page 2

post #11 of 33
I'm sure we will get scolded for all this 'Apple' talk in a Google thread, but seriously it seems like the government is using some sort of double standard here.
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post #12 of 33
You cant reason with these progressive big-government types...

They believe the market is there to be controlled and manipulated by government because THEY know whats best for YOU....stupid joe-civilian

Since android is anti-trust, and google gives priority to android, lets take this logic to other areas shall we?

Should I create a company that only produces diesel engines and file antitrust claims against every manufacturer that produces gasoline engines? Since gasoline is easier to find, naturally that makes my business more difficult and harder to grow.

Heres a thought, produce a better product that integrates more of what people want, less of what they dont. Microsoft and android didnt get to where they are because theyre evil MEANNNNN CORPORATISSSSTTTTTTTTSSSS they did it by producing something people wanted

/thread
post #13 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

As long as AOSP doesn't come with Google apps preloaded, I'm not sure what the Fed's case here really is. The entire point of AOSP is to prevent this type of litigation from being successful. Google can prove it does not prebundle Android apps pretty conclusively. It is the phone manufacturer that controls what Android comes installed with, is it not?

Well, yes and no. If a device maker wants to run AOSP completely on their own, there's no law that says they can't. If they want to license Google's software and APIs to go along with it, thats fine too. However, in order to license any of google's apps or APIs, you have to license all of them, and you can't have any devices that don't have all of them. So for example if Samsung wants to sell a Galaxy whatever with Google's version of Android on it (and they do; who would buy a phone without mail, an app store, map data, etc.), they can't sell any devices anywhere that don't have Google's software on them. This was the problem that Amazon ran into, they wanted to contract out their own device but couldn't get any of the big players to make it for them because doing so meant that they couldn't license Google's software on any other devices.

It's pretty obviously anti-competitive, now we will see if it is actually illegal.
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post #14 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Well, yes and no. If a device maker wants to run AOSP completely on their own, there's no law that says they can't. If they want to license Google's software and APIs to go along with it, thats fine too. However, in order to license any of google's apps or APIs, you have to license all of them, and you can't have any devices that don't have all of them. So for example if Samsung wants to sell a Galaxy whatever with Google's version of Android on it (and they do; who would buy a phone without mail, an app store, map data, etc.), they can't sell any devices anywhere that don't have Google's software on them. This was the problem that Amazon ran into, they wanted to contract out their own device but couldn't get any of the big players to make it for them because doing so meant that they couldn't license Google's software on any other devices.

It's pretty obviously anti-competitive, now we will see if it is actually illegal.
IIRC there are Android open source apps that provide mail and internet browsing as examples. They're pretty old and deprecated, but they do exist. The use of an app store is far from anti-competitive. As long as you do not make an unfairly high barrier to entry in the app store, you've not locked out any software developers. Apple and MS are free to write Android apps and ask Google to add them to Google Play or not.

I have a flashed HP Touchpad. Many people over on xda don't use Google Play or any Google apps. At all. I'm not sure how you can call Google Play anti-competitive. It is optional, and people choose to not use the option in a verifiable manner. To my knowledge, Amazon tablets still don't use Google Play, and they still sell just fine. Amazon's phone tanked, but they're still proving that Google's walled garden isn't anti-competitive, especially when compared to Apple's or Windows Phone's. I don't see anyone selling Windows or IOS devices without their respective app stores. I do see a rare AOSP offering or two. Sony has released quite a few AOSP devices.
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post #15 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

As long as AOSP doesn't come with Google apps preloaded, I'm not sure what the Fed's case here really is. The entire point of AOSP is to prevent this type of litigation from being successful. Google can prove it does not prebundle Android apps pretty conclusively. It is the phone manufacturer that controls what Android comes installed with, is it not?

And each manufacturer bundles their own custom made apps with their phone products running Android too. On top of which every user can go to not only Google's app store, but Amazon, or other 3rd party app stores and get whatever kind of apps they want to do anything they could possibly want. There is not even the slightest case here for what is being claimed.
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post #16 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chakravant View Post

IIRC there are Android open source apps that provide mail and internet browsing as examples. They're pretty old and deprecated, but they do exist. The use of an app store is far from anti-competitive. As long as you do not make an unfairly high barrier to entry in the app store, you've not locked out any software developers. Apple and MS are free to write Android apps and ask Google to add them to Google Play or not.

I have a flashed HP Touchpad. Many people over on xda don't use Google Play or any Google apps. At all. I'm not sure how you can call Google Play anti-competitive. It is optional, and people choose to not use the option in a verifiable manner. To my knowledge, Amazon tablets still don't use Google Play, and they still sell just fine. Amazon's phone tanked, but they're still proving that Google's walled garden isn't anti-competitive, especially when compared to Apple's or Windows Phone's. I don't see anyone selling Windows or IOS devices without their respective app stores. I do see a rare AOSP offering or two. Sony has released quite a few AOSP devices.

Well again, yes and no. There are open source apps that will kinda sorta do this. Samsung for example can release their own mail program, but without the cloud servers to provide mail sync it won't do anything. Same thing with any sort of mapping software, unless you have the whole earth mapped you are stuck with google or nothing at all. So many programs are dependent on Google APIs even if they have nothing else at all to do with Google; you lose access to all of those. And of course you can get by without the play store, just ask RIM. Interesting that you used Amazon as a counter example when by your own admission they product tanked, and tanked specifically because they didn't have access to top quality products as a direct result of google's actions.
What makes it anti competitive isn't that they developed a very successful product, that part is good, but that if you want to access that successful product, you can only use their product and no one else's. It would be a little like Intel telling an OEM that if they want to make machines with Intel products in them, they can't also sell products with AMD inside. Or a real example that happened, Microsoft telling OEMs if you want to license windows on any of your machines, or office on any of your machines, you have to also bundle IE and no other browser on all your machines, even the ones that don't otherwise have microsoft products in them. Not even MS went quite that far. What's interesting is that they even followed the traditional, "give it away for free until everyone needs it then start charging" approach to building a monopoly.
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post #17 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by EniGma1987 View Post

And each manufacturer bundles their own custom made apps with their phone products running Android too. On top of which every user can go to not only Google's app store, but Amazon, or other 3rd party app stores and get whatever kind of apps they want to do anything they could possibly want. There is not even the slightest case here for what is being claimed.

Well I mean, you didn't HAVE to buy gas from Standard Oil either, you *could* dig your own oil well. You didn't HAVE to buy steel from US Steel either, you *could* dig your own iron mine and smelt your own. You didn't HAVE to use ATT phones. You *could* run your own copper wires.

Having an [vastly inferior or completely impracticable] other option doesn't preclude a monopoly from existing in a legal sense.
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post #18 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce65 View Post

Well again, yes and no. There are open source apps that will kinda sorta do this. Samsung for example can release their own mail program, but without the cloud servers to provide mail sync it won't do anything. Same thing with any sort of mapping software, unless you have the whole earth mapped you are stuck with google or nothing at all. So many programs are dependent on Google APIs even if they have nothing else at all to do with Google; you lose access to all of those. And of course you can get by without the play store, just ask RIM. Interesting that you used Amazon as a counter example when by your own admission they product tanked, and tanked specifically because they didn't have access to top quality products as a direct result of google's actions.
So you agree that there is a choice, making the anti-competitive line incorrect? Also, the Kindle Fire is still doing quite well. Only one single Amazon Android product tanked. The experiment is still quite successful.
Quote:
What makes it anti competitive isn't that they developed a very successful product, that part is good, but that if you want to access that successful product, you can only use their product and no one else's. It would be a little like Intel telling an OEM that if they want to make machines with Intel products in them, they can't also sell products with AMD inside. Or a real example that happened, Microsoft telling OEMs if you want to license windows on any of your machines, or office on any of your machines, you have to also bundle IE and no other browser on all your machines, even the ones that don't otherwise have microsoft products in them. Not even MS went quite that far. What's interesting is that they even followed the traditional, "give it away for free until everyone needs it then start charging" approach to building a monopoly.
But as we've discussed, that is incorrect. AOSP is not a Google product. It is an open source code. Your analogy is incorrect. Google has no leverage to, and cannot, dictate terms. They know this, which is why they don't dictate terms. Google doesn't force Google Play down any manufacturer's throat. The manufacturer comes to Google, and asks if their system can run Google apps. That isn't a sign of a monopoly. It is a sign of meritocratic logic. This is nothing like Windows/IE. Google isn't bundling anything (Outside of the phones they make themselves. The Fed could order them to sell off their smartphone division, just like they forced Boeing to sell off their airline and engine divisions decades ago.). Samsung, LG, or whoever made your phone is doing the bundling. Google lets OEMs choose to voluntarily enter into this system. There is nothing anti-competitive here.
What is Google charging, and to whom? What does Google make that everyone needs?
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post #19 of 33
Oh look the government's feeling a little poor. Let find some money. Yes it is robbery. But the legal type. Teach google not to fall in line with encryption. You think I am making this up?Not remotely.
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post #20 of 33
I think this is stupid.

Whether it's for Android or iOS.

Though, one difference worth noting between the two is that iOS can only be installed on Apple devices, and consequently can only spread as fast as said devices are sold. On the other hand, Android can be licensed and put on any phone by various companies. Naturally its market share will grow much faster than that of iOS. I expect Apple will keep going strong as it is, but in say 10 years Android's market share will probably be in the 80-90% range. Imo, anyway.

Still don't see Google doing anything wrong in particular though.
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Core i5 6600K ASRock Z170 Pro4 ASUS Radeon RX 480 ROG Strix Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB 3000MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingMonitorPower
Samsung 850 EVO Noctua NH-D15 LG 34" Ultrawide (LG34UC98) Corsair HX750i 
Case
Silverstone FT05B-W 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Various] Feds investigating if Google’s Android violates antitrust rules