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[KG]Intel: Usage of DDR3 at default voltages can damage “Skylake” - Page 3

post #21 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoGTy View Post

That's a moot point. Intel sockets are "dead" the day they're launched.

This was my thought exactly.
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post #22 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kand View Post

Thinking about building a budget build with sjylake and ddr3? Tread lightly and be sure you get 1.35v RAM.

Skylake supports to 1.42v on DDR3 mode.



Quote:
Originally Posted by white owl View Post

I was asking no one in particular. wink.gif
I plan on building a new rig next quarter and I'm torn between Haswell-E and Skylake.
Seems odd to make 3 CPUs for a socket and quit.

They don't just make 3 CPUs for a consumer socket. Intel makes Xeon processors and failed versions of those get passed off to consumer market on the 2011v3 platform.
Edited by EniGma1987 - 9/30/15 at 6:21am
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post #23 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

Anytime you run voltages higher you can damage the CPU. This seems like more click here for a sensationalist title type article.

Agreed. Intel has been saying this kind of thing for a long time. They said not to use DDR3 above 1.65V on first gen i7 as well. Of course we ran 2.0V+ anyway.
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post #24 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artikbot View Post

As long as it makes HSW-EP chips cheaper... Intel can keep bringing on new sockets.

How is being forced to buy a new CPU AND board the cheaper option?
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post #25 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kand View Post

Ddr2 definitely would not fit in a ddr3 slot. There's a physical difference whereas a DDR3 stick will fit in the same slot as a DIMM that uses 1.35v.

The motherboards themselves specify support for ddr3 even if intel doesnt officially support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJRhoades View Post

That's because there aren't any Haswell boards that support DDR2. There are however some Skylake boards that support standard DDR3, not DDR3L. If the board advertises support then of course people are going to think standard 1.5v DDR3 works. You don't have to be a "retard" as you so eloquently put it. Intel should have made sure their board partners knew using 1.5v DDR3 was unacceptable and had them make it known to consumers.

Let's break down these points:


DDR3 and DDR3L physically fit into the same slots:
DDR2 can be shoved into DDR3 slots. DDR3 can be shoved into DDR4 slots. Sure, you have to push a little harder, but someone with zero experience building a computer wouldn't necessarily know not to, and these are the same people who would use high voltage DDR3 on a Skylake board.
Too far of a stretch for you? Alright, let's move to something that fits in easily. USB plugs fit very easily and snugly into HDMI ports.
No, that still doesn't work for you? They aren't quite identical you say? No problem, I've still got you covered. LGA 775 Core 2 Duos do not work on motherboards with absolutely identical LGA 775 sockets designed for Pentium 4s.
"But but but, 'Pentium 4' and 'Core 2 Quad' don't sound similar!!!" Well no, they don't. That said, there were many LGA 775 boards that never specified what CPU was designed to be seated in them. The combination of chipset and socket was presumed to be enough information for one to determine matching CPUs.
"Ok, fine, but those were CPUs. This is the first time it has happened with RAM". I don't see how that distinction really matters, but it is actually still false. Many early first gen DDR3 sticks had such a high voltage that they burned out the IMCs on later generation Core i3/5/7s. Intel specified the safe operating memory voltage for its CPUs, but there was never any mention of this from MOBO manufacturers. You know, almost exactly the same scenario as now, only DDR3 was the only choice rather than being the extreme minority, and thus if anything, it was a much bigger issue than today's.

There are some boards which claim to have DDR3 (non "L") support:
There are currently 6 commonly available motherboards on the market that support any form of DDR3 for Skylake CPUs. of these 6, 5 are made by ASUS, 4 of which are slight revisions of the same board. The 6th board is made by ASRock and specifies DDR3L. Ignoring the fact that you would have to be missing a few screws to ever pick one of these boards, and also the fact that these boards constitute less than 7% of the total available boards for Skylake CPUs, AND the fact that they are all made by ASUS - a company that has a history of advertising boards with features that actually kill the CPUs they are designed for... We are still left with the fact that Intel (the people who actually make the CPU in question) has never once mentioned support for non "L" DDR3. Even ASUS isn't technically in the wrong here, as Skylake technically CAN support non "L" DDR3, just not the higher voltage variants, much like they can support voltages and frequencies outside of Intel's stated specifications - something no one has ever cried about before.

Intel's should have forced all mobo partners into specifying that their boards only work with low voltage DDR3 (DDR3L):
Let's look at this from two different angles. First, let's start with Intel forcing exact compliance from mobo partners in all respects, including marketing. Is this something you want? I certainly do not. Anyone who remembers how much better the GPU market was before Nvidia started doing exactly that with their Titan line, and to a lesser extent the 600 series and newer, would be sure to agree.
Alright, so from a broad, conceptual perspective, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. How about just this one specific example of board partners not specifying DDR3L vs DDR3 for skylake compatible boards. Let's ignore that it just isn't practical for Intel to examine every single board that is ever made in order to enforce said compliance. Well, there are exactly 5 boards that are in violation of this hypothetical rule, at least as far as marketed specs go. Hardly a widespread issue, but one you could claim exists none the less. What happens when you actually look into the detailed information on these boards, either in the user manual that comes with them, or on the product pages of their associated websites? Oh, look at that, they either directly specificity the voltage, or warn you to look up Intel's spec (which in turn tells you the safe voltages). Ouch, guess that wasn't really a valid argument either.
Edited by Zero4549 - 10/3/15 at 3:12am
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post #26 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by xxbassplayerxx View Post

Agreed. Intel has been saying this kind of thing for a long time. They said not to use DDR3 above 1.65V on first gen i7 as well. Of course we ran 2.0V+ anyway.
Exactly, and weren't there very early DDR3 kits that had a much higher voltage level and there was a danger that users woudl enable that XMP and force much higher voltages than 1.65v
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post #27 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin0822 View Post

Exactly, and weren't there very early DDR3 kits that had a much higher voltage level and there was a danger that users woudl enable that XMP and force much higher voltages than 1.65v

Yes. There were 1.75 and 1.8v sticks being sold before sandy bridge hit.
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post #28 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post

DDR2 can be shoved into DDR3 slots. DDR3 can be shoved into DDR4 slots. Sure, you have to push a little harder, but someone with zero experience building a computer wouldn't necessarily know not to, and these are the same people who would use high voltage DDR3 on a Skylake board.

No.

sKTxpX2.jpg

No two versions of DDR memory has ever had the notch in the same place. You can push as hard as you want, it's not going into the wrong slot without breaking.
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post #29 of 111
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post


Let's break down these points:


DDR3 and DDR3L physically fit into the same slots:
DDR2 can be shoved into DDR3 slots. DDR3 can be shoved into DDR4 slots. Sure, you have to push a little harder, but someone with zero experience building a computer wouldn't necessarily know not to, and these are the same people who would use high voltage DDR3 on a Skylake board.
Too far of a stretch for you? Alright, let's move to something that fits in easily. USB plugs fit very easily and snugly into HDMI ports.
No, that still doesn't work for you? They aren't quite identical you say? No problem, I've still got you covered. LGA 775 Core 2 Duos do not work on motherboards with absolutely identical LGA 775 sockets designed for Pentium 4s.
"But but but, 'Pentium 4' and 'Core 2 Quad' don't sound similar!!!" Well no, they don't. That said, there were many LGA 775 boards that never specified what CPU was designed to be seated in. The combination of chipset and socket was presumed to be enough information for one to determine matching CPUs.
"Ok, fine, but those were CPUs. This is the first time it has happened with RAM". I don't see how that distinction really matters, but it is actually still false. Many early first gen DDR3 sticks had such a high voltage that they burned out the IMCs on later generation Core i3/5/7s. Intel specified the safe operating memory voltage for its CPUs, but there was never any mention of this from MOBO manufacturers. You know, almost exactly the same scenario as now, only DDR3 was the only choice rather than being the extreme minority, and thus if anything, it was a much bigger issue than today's.

You do bring up some valid points but are overlooking something very important.. A computer will NOT post with a DDR2 stick installed in a DDR3 slot but a DDR3 stick in a DDR3 slot and it will, even though the chip doesn't officially support the default voltage set.

Call me when you get a computer to POST by installing DDR2 sticks in a DDR3 slot.
Edited by Kand - 9/30/15 at 6:57pm
post #30 of 111
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJRhoades View Post

You can push as hard as you want, it's not going into the wrong slot without breaking.

I've seen plenty of people force DIMMs in backwards and latch them down.

Many motherboard can survive the flexing and will work fine when the DIMM is inserted correctly. Same thing can happen with different generations of DDR.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kand View Post

A computer will NOT post with a DDR2 stick installed in a DDR3 slot but a DDR3 stick in a DDR3 slot will, even though the chip doesn't officially support the default voltage set.

Yes, that's the issue here.
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Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
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X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Sapphire Fury Nitro OC+ @ 1053/500, 1.225vGPU/1... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
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