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[TweakTown]AMD might have trouble sourcing HBM2 for its next-gen video cards - Page 8

post #71 of 90
What makes anyone think that Nvidia would have any better luck obtaining second generation chips?
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post #72 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slomo4shO View Post

What makes anyone think that Nvidia would have any better luck obtaining second generation chips?
Samsung ?!!
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post #73 of 90
What the article is insinuating is that AMD won't use ANY HBM2 memory next year. With Micron, Hynix and Samsung producing HBM2, this would mean that either nVIDIA has bought exclusionary rights to ALL of the memory or that there are issues with HBM2.

Exclusionary contracts are not permitted with JEDEC open standards. Meaning that if nVIDIA wrote up a contract with the 3 memory makers, assuring them ALL of the HBM2 memory, this would not be permissible.

This is what the article is insinuating.
Quote:
Wouldn't count on AMD using HBM2 next year

This means no HBM2 whatsoever. Not at all possible.
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post #74 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noufel View Post

Samsung ?!!

Since when did Nvidia have an exclusivity contract with Samsung? Besides, Samsung isn't expected to begin mass production until the first half of 2016... around the release projections of Pascal...
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post #75 of 90
Why don't you speak in the terminology of 0 order kinetics(zero-sum) and 1 order kinetics(linear)?
So, what happens when HBM availability is limited? Through which regression does it take course? The Apple way, or the ARM way?(just made that comparison up)
I cannot keep track of the examples proving the same point over.
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post #76 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

What the article is insinuating is that AMD won't use ANY HBM2 memory next year. With Micron, Hynix and Samsung producing HBM2, this would mean that either nVIDIA has bought exclusionary rights to ALL of the memory or that there are issues with HBM2.

Exclusionary contracts are not permitted with JEDEC open standards. Meaning that if nVIDIA wrote up a contract with the 3 memory makers, assuring them ALL of the HBM2 memory, this would not be permissible.

This is what the article is insinuating.
This means no HBM2 whatsoever. Not at all possible.
This would be the turnabout of the century as Nvidia was teaming up with Micron for HMC... and Samsung was making their own projections. yields, or gains? (Click to show)

Edited by mtcn77 - 10/1/15 at 5:15pm
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post #77 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

What the article is insinuating is that AMD won't use ANY HBM2 memory next year.

No it's not.
Quote:
If AMD is in trouble with HBM2 next year, they might be stuck with short end of HBM2 yields. If so, we could see AMD utilizing HBM2 for their highest end GPU, which will most likely be a Fury X successor. Under that, we could see the company possibly using HBM1, but personally, I think HBM1 is something that should be used on mid-range cards for AMD's next-generation product stack.

Aside from all the OPINIONS, it CLEARLY says that they could see HBM1 used for mid-ranged cards. It doesn't say anything about low end (which logically means GDDR5 being used), nor does it say anything about high-end cards. Logically, since they aren't saying anything about it, and didn't lump mid and high together, that implies the following:

low-end cards = GDDR5
mid-range cards = HBM1
high-end cards = HBM2

It in NO WAY "insinuating is that AMD won't use ANY HBM2 memory next year." as you said. In fact, it implies exactly the OPPOSITE.
post #78 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mahigan View Post

We're not talking about Capitalism here. We're talking about an Open Standard licensing agreement (see contract law). You cannot pay more as a means to lock out competitors. You can pay more, as a means to obtain more HBM memory... true... but not to the point of excluding competitors from obtaining the same technology.

Paying more and buying everything they can produce is not the same as signing an exclusivity contract. You can't sign a contract that stipulates that, as a condition of the contract, they can't sell to someone else, but it isn't a breach of exclusivity to just buy all they can produce.

I can't tell you that you can't sell to someone else, but I can buy everything you make. Not saying that's what Nvidia is doing here, but if they contracted to buy 1000 wafers and it turns out Hynix (or whoever) can only make 1000 wafers, that's legal.

The Jedec patent policy is about not preventing people from using the standard to manufacture products that adhere to the standards (like Samsung deciding to make HBM, for example), it doesn't deal with manufacturer to customer contracts, at least not in any documents I've read.

And if making it a Jedec standard means you can't sign exclusive contracts, why has everyone been saying AMD has exclusive access to HBM?

Edit: And the Rambus FTC ruling was about them knowingly withholding a patent on a standard they helped develop, and then trying to enforce that patent later, along with changing their existing patents to cover the standard in an attempt to monopolize the market. Totally different issue.
Quote:
Rambus’s course of conduct played on these expectations. Rambus sat silently when other members discussed and adopted technologies that became subject to Rambus’s evolving patent claims. Rambus voted and commented on inclusion of programmable CAS latency and burst length without revealing that it was seeking patent coverage of those technologies, despite language on the ballot that called for disclosure of relevant patents. Rambus twice evaded direct questions about its patent portfolio, coupling a nonresponsive answer with a reminder that it previously had disclosed a patent (which lacked any claims then relevant to JEDEC’s work). Rambus even provided JEDEC with a list of its patents that omitted the one patent Rambus believed covered JEDEC’s work.

At the same time that Rambus was avoiding disclosure of its patent activity, Rambus was engaged in a program of amending its applications to develop a patent portfolio that would cover JEDEC’s standards. Rambus made full use of information gleaned from its JEDEC participation to accomplish this objective. Rambus’s JEDEC representative was charged with overseeing development of patent claims that would provide better coverage of products compliant with JEDEC’s SDRAM standards, and Rambus’s CEO asked for progress reports on claims that would cover the JEDEC standards.

https://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/files/documents/cases/2006/08/060802commissionopinion.pdf

And to be clear, I'm not saying I believe this "article" at all, because I don't, I just don't see anything that would indicate being a Jedec standard prevents a manufacturer from selling to whoever it wants.
Edited by Forceman - 10/1/15 at 8:07pm
post #79 of 90
Doesn't AMD have a dibs first on the first HBM2 batch?
So I'm not sure about this article.
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post #80 of 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defoler View Post

Doesn't AMD have a dibs first on the first HBM2 batch?
So I'm not sure about this article.

That was every bit as much of a rumor/speculation as this one.
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