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post #11 of 24
svn still exists?

https://git-scm.com/course/svn.html

Sourcetree is a free semi decent GUI client like turtle if that's what you're used to. The client in eclipse is ok too but not perfect. Command line is usually best. Git has a learning curve but you really don't have much of a choice these days, it's almost become universal. We like it.

I interview a lot of programmers. We at some point talk about version control tools.

What source control tools have you used?
"Turtle."
You mean tortoise svn?
"Yeah, turtle. We use turtle right now. It's ok."

So, we all refer to it as turtle now. smile.gif

Not to bash on svn, it was a nice project a decade ago and we had good use of it. Then they added the merge tracking....
Edited by lloyd mcclendon - 10/30/15 at 9:44pm
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post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd mcclendon View Post

svn still exists?

https://git-scm.com/course/svn.html

Sourcetree is a free semi decent GUI client like turtle if that's what you're used to. The client in eclipse is ok too but not perfect. Command line is usually best. Git has a learning curve but you really don't have much of a choice these days, it's almost become universal. We like it.

I interview a lot of programmers. We at some point talk about version control tools.

What source control tools have you used?
"Turtle."
You mean tortoise svn?
"Yeah, turtle. We use turtle right now. It's ok."

So, we all refer to it as turtle now. smile.gif

Not to bash on svn, it was a nice project a decade ago and we had good use of it. Then they added the merge tracking....

I never liked SVN... It did its job but managing it was almost a full time job... If you set up your access rights on your primary node for git, you don't really EVER need to worry about merges...
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post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lloyd mcclendon View Post

svn still exists?

https://git-scm.com/course/svn.html

Sourcetree is a free semi decent GUI client like turtle if that's what you're used to. The client in eclipse is ok too but not perfect. Command line is usually best. Git has a learning curve but you really don't have much of a choice these days, it's almost become universal. We like it.

I interview a lot of programmers. We at some point talk about version control tools.

What source control tools have you used?
"Turtle."
You mean tortoise svn?
"Yeah, turtle. We use turtle right now. It's ok."

So, we all refer to it as turtle now. smile.gif

Not to bash on svn, it was a nice project a decade ago and we had good use of it. Then they added the merge tracking....

I have had too many bad experiences with GIT, but it is mainly because SourceTree is (IMO) garbage. Every time we had to do a check-in, we would cross our fingers hoping it would work. After spending 4 hours trying to figure out why my copy and his copy were different and that when i merged his code into the trunk, that it decided to merge the files but remove all the changes he made. Then i couldnt revert the merge to retry it... so, I had to manually copy the stuff over and re-commit his stuff along with my stuff. Every time... a massive headache.... But that is not GIT's fault, but more of SourceTree's merge tool.

As for "Turtle" SVN, I used that for 3 years or so and i loved it and I don't remember any annoying merging issues. I was in charge of that system for the team of 20 devs i was with, and I had very few problems with it. The one funny issue i ran into was when someone checked in a file like Config.xml and there was already a config.xml in there. So, when someone tried to get the source, it would freak out because there was 2 files. (Linux is case sensitive while windows is not). I eventually wrote a tool to do a 1 way sync from SVN to TFS because we were migrating over to it. I prefer SVN because it is simple and does everything I want it to do.

Due to the massive headache that I had with SourceTree , I had setup an instance of TFS and have been using that since. Visual Studio does a great job with it. It knows not to check-in the bin directory and all the temp personal files it creates.

If your using Visual Studio for development, I would recomend using TFS. You can setup a free online version https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/what-is-visual-studio-online-vs.aspx .
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post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrzev View Post

I have had too many bad experiences with GIT, but it is mainly because SourceTree is (IMO) garbage. Every time we had to do a check-in, we would cross our fingers hoping it would work. After spending 4 hours trying to figure out why my copy and his copy were different and that when i merged his code into the trunk, that it decided to merge the files but remove all the changes he made. Then i couldnt revert the merge to retry it... so, I had to manually copy the stuff over and re-commit his stuff along with my stuff. Every time... a massive headache.... But that is not GIT's fault, but more of SourceTree's merge tool.

As for "Turtle" SVN, I used that for 3 years or so and i loved it and I don't remember any annoying merging issues. I was in charge of that system for the team of 20 devs i was with, and I had very few problems with it. The one funny issue i ran into was when someone checked in a file like Config.xml and there was already a config.xml in there. So, when someone tried to get the source, it would freak out because there was 2 files. (Linux is case sensitive while windows is not). I eventually wrote a tool to do a 1 way sync from SVN to TFS because we were migrating over to it. I prefer SVN because it is simple and does everything I want it to do.

Due to the massive headache that I had with SourceTree , I had setup an instance of TFS and have been using that since. Visual Studio does a great job with it. It knows not to check-in the bin directory and all the temp personal files it creates.

If your using Visual Studio for development, I would recomend using TFS. You can setup a free online version https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/products/what-is-visual-studio-online-vs.aspx .

It sounds like you didn't branch much if you thought subversion and merging were OK. As soon as 2 developers were working on the same file in different branches, or support, core maintenance and custom development got working on the same files it was a colossal waste of resources.

Git merges better, and branches better than any other VCS out there by leaps and bounds. The problem you seem to have is you're using a bad GUI tool to try to avoid learning git command line. This is kind of weird for me, because git command line is one of the main reasons its so powerful, you can easily include chunks and precisely manage commits. Not to mention all of the issues you were talking about with the tool were because the real actions being taken on your local copy were being obfuscated to you. Backing out of a merge should be trivial.
Code:
git checkout -b mergebranchname
git merge branchtobemerged
git checkout mainbranch
git merge mergebranchname

Errors in that process?
Code:
git branch -D mergebranchname

All backed out.

Really though, the problem is the basic premise of people who use git via tools like Tortoise .. they think its a plug and play replacement for SCM tools like SVN and use it as such, and you are shooting yourself in the foot because the real power of git is that it is a fundamental paradigm shift from the crappy way of doing VCS in SVN and older systems.

Large feature branches, version branches, code base version enhancements are all ridiculously easy using git compared to SVN.
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post #15 of 24
Even Microsoft is phasing out TFVC for git. I'm told most of their teams in house don't even use it internally on new projects. Every software developer in the world that stays current is all in on git. TFVC is slightly better than SVN sure, but really it's the same model and I can't make a case for it, having spent the past 5 years working with it every day.

What you described above is most certainly user error. Git has a learning curve. You don't just think SVN like and everything is happy on day one. You even used the word "trunk" so...
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post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

Large feature branches, version branches, code base version enhancements are all ridiculously easy using git compared to SVN.

Git isn't universally superior to SVN. Does anybody really use Git in a fully distributed manner? Github and Bitbucket thrive on a quasi-centralised VC model, and this same model (with or without forking) is common within companies as well. It's excruciatingly difficult to work without a single source of truth. Git's branching model is definitely superior, although this is only really valuable with a codebase that has lots of overlapping work or that is constant flux. Maintenance teams working on more mature codebases can easily get away with SVN with little to no loss of productivity.

I think where SVN really shines is for non-developer version control. We've been trying to push everyone onto Git where I work (because it's "better") and the resistance is high outside of development teams. Much of the resistance is understandable too. Git is a complex beast and if all I'm doing is updating documentation or versioning some SQL scripts I don't really care about creating hundreds of branches or understanding the difference between an octopus merge and a rebase. I just want to avoid "data_ETL_v3 - Copy - Copy.sql".
    
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post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post

Git isn't universally superior to SVN. Does anybody really use Git in a fully distributed manner? Github and Bitbucket thrive on a quasi-centralised VC model, and this same model (with or without forking) is common within companies as well. It's excruciatingly difficult to work without a single source of truth. Git's branching model is definitely superior, although this is only really valuable with a codebase that has lots of overlapping work or that is constant flux. Maintenance teams working on more mature codebases can easily get away with SVN with little to no loss of productivity.

I think where SVN really shines is for non-developer version control. We've been trying to push everyone onto Git where I work (because it's "better") and the resistance is high outside of development teams. Much of the resistance is understandable too. Git is a complex beast and if all I'm doing is updating documentation or versioning some SQL scripts I don't really care about creating hundreds of branches or understanding the difference between an octopus merge and a rebase. I just want to avoid "data_ETL_v3 - Copy - Copy.sql".


Git IS universally superior to SVN.

I could litterally go down a list of refutions of all of your statements, and originally I had written them out, so I'm going to put them in a spoiler, but the tl;dr of it is all below.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The Open source community and many development teams completely make use of the fully decentralized nature of GIT. Bitbucket and Github being a central hub for the VCS in no way shape or form breaks the distributed model of GIT.

You explain exactly why your organization can't capitalize on the better VCS. Your entire argument is we have had SVN in place long enough, and our codebase is inactive enough where we get away with using SVN. You fail to address the elephant in the room that SVN and systems like it store copies of the entire repository in each branch they keep, and the model of most repos created using SVN includes the entire binary stack of artifacts for a server, holy expensive bloat batman.

If you really must put things into VCS that don't belong in a VCS like binary documents / documentation (they belong in a CMS if they aren't integrated into the code files themselves) GIT simply falls back and acts like SVN and stores the entire blob. There are many GUI tools which execute the same commands your simple users require from SVN in GIT. I mean, most people use TortoiseSVN right? They have the same plugin available for GIT!

GIT isn't any more complex in your simple user scenario than SVN, it simply isn't. Your simple users aren't going to be creating hundreds of branches, they will (or should be) updating their documentation on their own working branch to facilitate simple usage, and at most be 1 branch deep from that at any time. They should never be introduced to the more complex instructions, and have no real reason to seek them out. Finally, git will avoid copy-copy-copy just as well as SVN.

You're entire argument for SVN having any hand up over GIT is bunk, you or your management organization simply don't have the desire, political clout or wherewithal to drive the change home and educate your users. That is OK and is not meant as a personal attack, but your scenario is NOT indicative of SVN being superior to GIT in any way.


At the end of the day, summarizing your statements, the worst case scenario for what you are saying is GIT is superior to SVN in every case, and vastly superior in some (not all of which are your organizations) use cases. At no point do you actually make a point where GIT isn't superior, so I really don't understand the point of your post. Your one really valid statement is it is hard to work without a single truth, but nothing about GIT's distributed model suggests you have to work with multiple truth sources. You are just able to work around your single truth source much better, until you chose to commit your finished work to it. Meanwhile, in SVN you need to create a new branch which creates an entire new copy of the repository to check in your changes, your collaborators now have to check it out a whole new branch to get your code and now you've introduced SVN's bad merging into the mix.


tl;dr - Not better.
Edited by Avonosac - 11/5/15 at 8:11am
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post #18 of 24
Branches in SVN are cheap. They're definitely more expensive than in Git, but not for the reason you mentioned. Making a branch in SVN always requires a developer to decide to pollute the repository with another commit. You actually have think about whether you want to make one. In Git the branches are only exposed to others if the developer chooses to expose them and so there is no reason not to create them. This is irrelevant if you don't branch much, or at all, which is common for non-developers.

The difference in disk space isn't even worth mentioning. SVN doesn't copy the entire tree for each branch. Our entire SVN repository is 15GB and the most active project has over 4000 branches (old, of course). The current checked out working copy of that project is almost 500MB. Do the maths. In contrast we have some Git repositories that have barely a handful of revisions and yet are over 600MB in size (more when checked out). You can screw up any VCS if you dump massive compressed binaries into them and change them in every revision. Git is no different.

IMO Git is usually superior, but because SVN is conceptually simpler it is a better fit for some of our users. GUI tools hiding the complexities of Git takes away some of its advantages, at which point I'd wonder why you bothered using it in the first place. GUI tools for Git are rubbish anyway. They have an abysmal stability record. Unfortunately "just use the CLI" doesn't fly for some people and they just keep whinging about crashes instead of solving the problem.

Anyway, I am done with this discussion. It could just be your style of posting but I get the impression that you have a fanatical obsession with Git and religious debates don't go anywhere useful. smile.gif
Edited by randomizer - 11/6/15 at 2:27am
    
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post #19 of 24
Yea, this isn't going anywhere.

You circled your wagons, and you aren't reading what I write because of a perception of fanaticism? I'm not sure how you believe a logical discussion is fanatical in any way, especially since I was careful to explain every point. If SVN doesn't keep entire binary copies for each branch now, then it has finally been updated from a previous version which did.

Mostly though, you take your bad users use case and claim it as gospel. (See what I did there, since you tried to pain this as some sort of a religious devotion to a superior tool? Get it? Get it??) To each their own, but any way you split it storing the binaries of everything you store makes merging a nightmare. The entire paradigm shift of working with Git over SVN/CVS etc.. makes it superior.

This entire view stems from working on many organizations codebases, and after so long of having to deal with crappy VCS's implemented in a poor way I've had enough. Git is the best, and easiest VCS to use. GUI tools suck? Well I'm sure you could actively contribute to their codebases in order to fix your users problems.

Git devolves in your uses cases to act as SVN when storing binaries, but it doesn't start that way. And yes, you're right you can pollute any VCS if you don't use it correctly, some are just already polluted when you start using them.
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Commodore 64
(10 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3930k x79 gd45 PLUS GTX Titan Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP  
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HyperX 3k Intel 320 Seagate Barracuda Swifttech H220 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
Swifttech 220QP Corsair SP120 Windows 8.1 Pro Windows 10 Pro 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 7 Home Ubuntu 15.4 QNIX 2710 Catleap 2B 
Keyboard
Ducky - Cherry MX Red 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3570k DZ77GA - 70K GTX670-DC2-4GD5  MV-3V4G3D/US 
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HyperX 3k CM 212 + Win 7 64 ubuntu 
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Seventeam 850w modular CS-NT-ZERO-2  
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post #20 of 24
Thread Starter 
So, what I learned from this discussion is that my knowledge about version control is total crap. I will try to learn a bit more about GIT and go from there.
Wife's bane
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i5-3570K @ 4.5 Ghz Gigabyte Z77 UD3H HIS R9-290 8 GB Samsung Wonder RAM 
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Crucial SSD for OS Samsung Spinpoint F3 Asus XSPC water block, 360 radiator, and 720 reservo... 
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GPU cooling - XSPC Razer full GPU blocks Win 7 Home Premium Asus PB278Q 2560 X 1440p ISP Logitech G15 
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NZXT Hale90 V2 NZXT Switch 810 Logitech G500 Steelseries QcK 
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Optical out to Sony receiver; Deftech Monitor 3... 
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Wife's bane
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5-3570K @ 4.5 Ghz Gigabyte Z77 UD3H HIS R9-290 8 GB Samsung Wonder RAM 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
Crucial SSD for OS Samsung Spinpoint F3 Asus XSPC water block, 360 radiator, and 720 reservo... 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
GPU cooling - XSPC Razer full GPU blocks Win 7 Home Premium Asus PB278Q 2560 X 1440p ISP Logitech G15 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
NZXT Hale90 V2 NZXT Switch 810 Logitech G500 Steelseries QcK 
Audio
Optical out to Sony receiver; Deftech Monitor 3... 
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