Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [Various] AMD's Zen To Have 10 Pipelines Per Core - Details Leaked In Patch (Updated)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

[Various] AMD's Zen To Have 10 Pipelines Per Core - Details Leaked In Patch (Updated) - Page 19

post #181 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

Considering Penryn and Nehalem were 45nm and Skylake is now at 14nm, there should have been large IPC gains from process shrinkage alone and 8 core should probably be standard for the top of the line consumer CPU. Yet we don't even see 50% gains and we are still only getting 4 cores. Instead they've added an integrated GPU and we have seen much larger increases in the power of the iGPU with each generation. We even know Karby Lake, which will be competing with Zen+, is basically Skylake with a better iGPU. Intel's focus simply does not appear to have been on providing a better CPU, but instead providing a better APU.

Skylake is right at 50% faster than Penryn from my estimates, but, no doubt, 8-cores should be pretty standard. Obviously AMD believed this as well.

The inclusion of a GPU, however, does throw something of a wrench into the simple anticipated progression as two fronts are now important. With Intel now holding the APU crown as well, AMD holds no more cards in any market.

They will need to regain one, or both, markets to survive to Zen+. The problem is that people are poisoned against AMD. AMD really has no choice but to push for the top. They have to get back to making Intel and nVidia look like the evil corporations they really are (not that AMD is actually better). One thing that happened that was beyond their control was a shift in public mentality. Computers and their parts were usually something we'd keep for six months, maybe a year, and we'd move on. With that throw-away mentality in mind, we'd seek out value. Today, however, people who once upgraded that quickly don't upgrade for years at a time. When they do, they want something that will last them/ With lower prices and an increased willingness to spend more, people will eschew the value proposition by default.

What AMD needs, though, is to cover both types of people by creating an alternative luxury brand (not a branding, an actual brand). AMD for the mainstream, low end stuff, and the new brand for upper-mainstream and the high end. Same tech, but the best stuff goes to the other brand, and the cheap stuff keeps the AMD brand. Then motherboard makers can proudly state: "Compatible with XXX Luxury CPUs" "... oh, and also those AMD CPUs as well."
post #182 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

Skylake is right at 50% faster than Penryn from my estimates, but, no doubt, 8-cores should be pretty standard. Obviously AMD believed this as well.

I mean 50% from the shrinkage of the process. Penryn and Nehalem were both 45nm and there were gains from Penryn to Nahalem. So there were certainly some architecture advances made at points that were independent of the process. Yes, there was a total of 50% from Penryn to Skylake, but I think we should be seeing a whole lot more, including more improvements from just the process shrink. Instead of utilizing the greater space available to them to improve the CPU, they used it to improve the GPU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by looncraz View Post

The inclusion of a GPU, however, does throw something of a wrench into the simple anticipated progression as two fronts are now important. With Intel now holding the APU crown as well, AMD holds no more cards in any market.

They will need to regain one, or both, markets to survive to Zen+. The problem is that people are poisoned against AMD. AMD really has no choice but to push for the top. They have to get back to making Intel and nVidia look like the evil corporations they really are (not that AMD is actually better). One thing that happened that was beyond their control was a shift in public mentality. Computers and their parts were usually something we'd keep for six months, maybe a year, and we'd move on. With that throw-away mentality in mind, we'd seek out value. Today, however, people who once upgraded that quickly don't upgrade for years at a time. When they do, they want something that will last them/ With lower prices and an increased willingness to spend more, people will eschew the value proposition by default.

What AMD needs, though, is to cover both types of people by creating an alternative luxury brand (not a branding, an actual brand). AMD for the mainstream, low end stuff, and the new brand for upper-mainstream and the high end. Same tech, but the best stuff goes to the other brand, and the cheap stuff keeps the AMD brand. Then motherboard makers can proudly state: "Compatible with XXX Luxury CPUs" "... oh, and also those AMD CPUs as well."

There has never been a time when AMD controlled any major CPU market. That said, AMD has been trying to differentiate themselves by doing custom processors for companies, consoles being their first ones. If they can expand that business, and have the technology that at least matches Intel, they could easily create themselves a niche. We know AMD has at least 3 other contracts to create custom processors.

I don't think it's a change in mentality so much as it's simply not worthwhile to upgrade your CPU. Intel simply isn't producing processors with a large enough leap and low enough prices to justify upgrades as often. The enthusiast marketshare is probably one of the easiest ones to capture marketshare in if AMD is competitive in performance and price. Many simply don't have a brand loyalty, they will buy what has the highest benchmarks for what they can afford. It's also a market where there is nothing holding someone to their CPU since they end up having to buy a whole new motherboard anyway since Intel switches sockets so quickly. If AMD can produce an 8 core CPU that is as powerful or more powerful than the 4 core equivalent Intel, they could capture a large part of the enthusiast marketshare since DirectX 12 and Vulkan are going to make multicore worth owning.

It's the prebuilt PC market that AMD has the most problems with and that has always been the case. Even when AMD had performance advantage over Intel, we saw what Intel will do to maintain their marketshare. The biggest hope for AMD here is custom processors as it's rumored Apple is having AMD create one for 2017-2018 iMacs and MacBooks. If Apple devices start using AMD, it may bump AMD's prestige a little higher in the prebuilt market.
post #183 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

Considering Penryn and Nehalem were 45nm and Skylake is now at 14nm, there should have been large IPC gains from process shrinkage alone and 8 core should probably be standard for the top of the line consumer CPU. Yet we don't even see 50% gains and we are still only getting 4 cores. Instead they've added an integrated GPU and we have seen much larger increases in the power of the iGPU with each generation. We even know Karby Lake, which will be competing with Zen+, is basically Skylake with a better iGPU. Intel's focus simply does not appear to have been on providing a better CPU, but instead providing a better APU.

well the high pole jump raise the world record with one centimeter each time due to the bonus is for the record not how high you jump.
Intel have had no reason to produce better ipc etc..due to even a 3% or whatever sells new processors.
great to find amd back in the game again next year
Thyslexia
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1600 ga B350 gaming 3 Nitro sapphire 390 16gb corsair lpx 2933mhz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
samsung 850 pro  sony water w10 64bit Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
acer xg270hu 1440p 144hz! steelseries 6gv2 Corsair 750w Cm 840 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
corsair deathadder (G400 cable went bad) sennheiser HD 600 asus essence stx 
  hide details  
Reply
Thyslexia
(16 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1600 ga B350 gaming 3 Nitro sapphire 390 16gb corsair lpx 2933mhz 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
samsung 850 pro  sony water w10 64bit Pro 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
acer xg270hu 1440p 144hz! steelseries 6gv2 Corsair 750w Cm 840 
MouseMouse PadAudioAudio
corsair deathadder (G400 cable went bad) sennheiser HD 600 asus essence stx 
  hide details  
Reply
post #184 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

I mean 50% from the shrinkage of the process. [snip] Yes, there was a total of 50% from Penryn to Skylake, but I think we should be seeing a whole lot more, including more improvements from just the process shrink.

Yes, they no doubt have been resting on their laurels. But this was expected since AMD stopped being competitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

There has never been a time when AMD controlled any major CPU market.

AMD/ATI actually had the dominant graphics market share for a very long time, they were just outmaneuvered by a smaller company marketing inferior products as if they were superior. nVidia focused on the most user-visible issues at the same time AMD was trying to figure out how to survive after spending WAY too much for ATI.

http://regmedia.co.uk/2007/10/29/gpu_q3_1.png

In addition, for years they had the most powerful CPUs which were in the highest demand, including overtaking Intel sales for a few non-consecutive quarters once they got their production capabilities in order (which cost them massive amounts of money)

http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/chart_amd.gif

The problem is that they were not on top long enough to make back the money they invested in expansion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

I don't think it's a change in mentality so much as it's simply not worthwhile to upgrade your CPU. Intel simply isn't producing processors with a large enough leap and low enough prices to justify upgrades as often.

Partly that, but also Windows has become smoother on slower hardware and the biggest performance jumps that you can feel are with SSDs. The secret to Windows feeling smoother was desktop GPU acceleration. We no longer can feel the small increases in performance because the desktop is running at a framerate governed by demand. This is part of why so much focus by Intel has been on GPUs. Once you get to the enthusiast sockets you ditch the GPU and gain more cores, but you're going to pay... and you will likely be behind the curve of desktop parts since the enthusiast parts are just server parts which require more time for validation than desktop parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

The enthusiast marketshare is probably one of the easiest ones to capture marketshare in if AMD is competitive in performance and price.

Yes, certainly. Intel has a stranglehold on every other market and will only be letting go strategically.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

It's also a market where there is nothing holding someone to their CPU since they end up having to buy a whole new motherboard anyway since Intel switches sockets so quickly.

This very much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

If AMD can produce an 8 core CPU that is as powerful or more powerful than the 4 core equivalent Intel, they could capture a large part of the enthusiast marketshare since DirectX 12 and Vulkan are going to make multicore worth owning.

They actually did this. Bulldozer was every bit as powerful, overall, as an i7 2600k. The FX-8350 was more so (I know, I switched from an FX-8350 to Sandy Bridge). But you couldn't get much more out of it than it had stock, and you could easily get more out of Sandy Bridge. I upgraded to a known 5GHz @ stock voltage i5 2500k (and ran it at 4.5GHz for comfort) and was wowed by the difference in single threaded loads, but the FX-8350 was still faster in a few things I cared about - such as rendering. When I went to an i7 2600k and clocked it to 4.5GHz, all bets were off.

Zen will need to be scratching around Haswell or better in single threaded workloads and be able to clock similarly to gain any love. Even then, Intel already has Skylake, which Zen will not match, let alone beat, unless the 40% number was some form of trickery (which might even be illegal).
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

The biggest hope for AMD here is custom processors as it's rumored Apple is having AMD create one for 2017-2018 iMacs and MacBooks. If Apple devices start using AMD, it may bump AMD's prestige a little higher in the prebuilt market.

This is very true. I hate Apple, I really do. I hated them when they were a tiny company barely able to sustain their existence. I hate them now that they are huge. But they can be a force to drive markets. If AMD makes some killer APU for it (which is what I suspect they will be doing), I think other OEMs will want to duplicate Apple's usage of it, and that is all good for AMD.
post #185 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by variant View Post

There has never been a time when AMD controlled any major CPU market. That said, AMD has been trying to differentiate themselves by doing custom processors for companies, consoles being their first ones. If they can expand that business, and have the technology that at least matches Intel, they could easily create themselves a niche. We know AMD has at least 3 other contracts to create custom processors.
In late '04/early '05, AMD actually had over 50% of consumer PC desktop sales. They were absolutely on fire with the original single core Athlon 64. They probably would have been near 75% if it weren't for Dell's exclusive use of Intel processors for an extremely long time. They nailed it again with the Athlon 64 X2.

The problem is they had no real answer for Conroe, and they wasted a year trying to be the first to come out with a monolithic quad-core. AMD got their wish, and had the first monolithic quad core - complete with crippling TLB bug setting them back another couple months. So for the entire year AMD had been wasting time developing their quad, Intel had been churning out millions of dual-die Core 2 Quads.

AMD basically vanished from high performance and enthusiast builds over night. IMO, it was the Agena quad-core flop that really did AMD in. Bulldozer was just icing on the cake.
post #186 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmericanLoco View Post

In late '04/early '05, AMD actually had over 50% of consumer PC desktop sales. They were absolutely on fire with the original single core Athlon 64. They probably would have been near 75% if it weren't for Dell's exclusive use of Intel processors for an extremely long time. They nailed it again with the Athlon 64 X2.

The problem is they had no real answer for Conroe, and they wasted a year trying to be the first to come out with a monolithic quad-core. AMD got their wish, and had the first monolithic quad core - complete with crippling TLB bug setting them back another couple months. So for the entire year AMD had been wasting time developing their quad, Intel had been churning out millions of dual-die Core 2 Quads.

AMD basically vanished from high performance and enthusiast builds over night. IMO, it was the Agena quad-core flop that really did AMD in. Bulldozer was just icing on the cake.

This is true.
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
post #187 of 758
This is their last chance, if Zen is not competitive, AMD will be gone or split up. Only their embedded division is making money, they are better off closing down GPU and CPU side.
post #188 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by escksu View Post

This is their last chance, if Zen is not competitive, AMD will be gone or split up. Only their embedded division is making money, they are better off closing down GPU and CPU side.

Very pessimistic aren't you.

This is corporate merry-go round bull, companies live and die. When a company becomes as vital to Intel and it's conglomeration there is no way in hell Intel will allow themselves to be sanctioned by the law to divide it's enterprise into tinier companies.

Intel through another company or something will pump money into AMD without stirring red flags. If a company see interest in their patents they just may want majority of the shares and annex it's control.
Edited by SpeedyVT - 11/13/15 at 12:03am
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
Power Tower
(22 items)
 
SteamBox
(9 items)
 
Doge Miner
(7 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Ryzen 1700X AX370-Gaming 5 AMD Radeon R9 200 Series G.Skill DDR4-2400 
RAMRAMRAMHard Drive
G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 G.Skill DDR4-2400 Samsung 840 Pro 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
CX300 Crucial 480GB Toshiba 4TB Toshbia 4TB Western Digital Black 1TB 
CoolingOSMonitorMonitor
h110i Windows 10 42" LG TV 20" Digitizer ASUS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Corsair Vengeance Mechanical Keyboard  850watt Vampire Gold Rated NZXT S340 Elite Corsair RGB FPS Mouse 
Mouse PadAudio
Borderlands Mousepad Realtek HD 
  hide details  
Reply
post #189 of 758
It is thanks to AMD poor performance that we are seeing 3-5% ipc gain every generation, the only notable jump was Westmere to SB and Intel regret it straightaway.



No more good CPU coming in future until Zen really kick Intel butt...


Every year is wasted in seeing GPU improvement of 40-50% when its suppose to be CPU performance. mad.gif


F the iGPU really.
Project Frostbite
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core I7-6800K OC 4.2GHz @ 1.28 Vcore ASUS X99 Sabertooth Gigabyte Aorus GTX 1080 Ti 11G Corsair Vengeance White LED 4x8GB DDR4-3200MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung Evo 850 1TB Corsair H100i V2 AiO Window 10 64-Bits Home Premium Acer Predator XB271HU 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Tesoro Spectrum Mechanical Keyboard (Blue Switc... Thermaltake Toughpower 1000W Gold Phantek Enthoo Pro Full Acrylic Black Razer Diamondback 3G 
AudioAudioAudio
Audio Engine A2+ Speaker Audio Engine D1 DAC Audio Engine S8 Subwoofer 
  hide details  
Reply
Project Frostbite
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core I7-6800K OC 4.2GHz @ 1.28 Vcore ASUS X99 Sabertooth Gigabyte Aorus GTX 1080 Ti 11G Corsair Vengeance White LED 4x8GB DDR4-3200MHz 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Samsung Evo 850 1TB Corsair H100i V2 AiO Window 10 64-Bits Home Premium Acer Predator XB271HU 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Tesoro Spectrum Mechanical Keyboard (Blue Switc... Thermaltake Toughpower 1000W Gold Phantek Enthoo Pro Full Acrylic Black Razer Diamondback 3G 
AudioAudioAudio
Audio Engine A2+ Speaker Audio Engine D1 DAC Audio Engine S8 Subwoofer 
  hide details  
Reply
post #190 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

It is thanks to AMD poor performance that we are seeing 3-5% ipc gain every generation, the only notable jump was Westmere to SB and Intel regret it straightaway.

Actually, except for Ivy Bridge, Intel has done more significant changes than that. It's just that software has become increasingly accelerated by GPU, has better threading, AND have their performance benefits hidden behind a composited windowing system.

That last part is one of the biggest areas. Once upon a time, you could feel a 20% increase in performance very easily. Every menu, window, action would be that much faster. Then, we offloaded drawing almost entirely to the GPU. The GPU is so fast that we actually have to slow down the drawing and limit it to 60fps. That means that we no longer see changes in performance in everything we do, we pretty much have to measure it. We might notice that we spent a minute less encoding a video, but it won't impress us because of how much time went by anyway.

Once the computer is running smoothly, more performance can't really be felt. An SSD, enough memory, and a decent GPU can made even old systems feel very fast. My wife's Phenom II x4 955 boots as fast as my i7 2600k @ 4.5GHz, feels as fast on the desktop, runs just as smoothly (sometimes better - she has less junk running rolleyes.gif). In day to day activities, you can't tell that my computer is drastically faster than hers. You can barely tell when playing games.

Of course, she lacks SATA3, but I raided two 64GB m4 SSDs so the performance is actually very similar (most apps go to a hard drive, but critical ones such as Firefox are on the SSD - using junctions and links).
Quote:
Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post

Every year is wasted in seeing GPU improvement of 40-50% when its suppose to be CPU performance. mad.gif

F the iGPU really.

Agreed. I don't what my CPU to have a GPU except for my HTPC. And, even then, I have a dGPU so I can do some serious games on my 65" TV thumb.gif

That said, I'd like to take the GPU out of my HTPC, it pulls 40W more while watching DVDs or BluRays than the iGPU in the A8-7600. I'm eagerly awaiting AM4 APUs. I will not mind upgrading the HTPC in late 2017 or early 2018.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles
Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Rumors and Unconfirmed Articles › [Various] AMD's Zen To Have 10 Pipelines Per Core - Details Leaked In Patch (Updated)