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[Various] AMD's Zen To Have 10 Pipelines Per Core - Details Leaked In Patch (Updated) - Page 4

post #31 of 758
Thread Starter 
Seems there is more to add to this Blog post via WCCF Tech (Breaking down the Blog Post and adding imagery):
Quote:

AMD has just uploaded a patch to the patchwork project detailing many aspects of its hotly anticipated Zen CPU microarchitecture.

The patch was uploaded by venkataramanan.kumar@amd.com and is titled ” [x86_64] znver1 enablement” re-affirming that there will be indeed multiple generations of AMD’s brand new CPU core and this particular patch only covers the first iteration of the core that’s coming out next year.

The Patch Allows Us To Get A Glimpse Into The Inner-Workings Of AMD’s Next Generation High Performance x86 Zen CPU Core Today, with the information that has been revealed through the patch, we can get a better idea of how Zen looks like from a high-level design standpoint.
Quote:
+;; Integer unit 4 ALU pipes.

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-ieu0" "znver1_ieu")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-ieu1" "znver1_ieu")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-ieu2" "znver1_ieu")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-ieu3" "znver1_ieu")

+(define_reservation "znver1-ieu" "znver1-ieu0|znver1-ieu1|znver1-ieu2|znver1-ieu3")

+

+;; 2 AGU pipes.

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-agu0" "znver1_agu")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-agu1" "znver1_agu")

+(define_reservation "znver1-agu-reserve" "znver1-agu0|znver1-agu1")
Floating point unit 4 FP pipes.

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-fp0" "znver1_fp")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-fp1" "znver1_fp")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-fp2" "znver1_fp")

+(define_cpu_unit "znver1-fp3" "znver1_fp")

+

+(define_reservation "znver1-fpu" "znver1-fp0|znver1-fp1|znver1-fp2|znver1-fp3")

This gives us a beautifully high-level insight into what a Zen core looks like. Each core has four ALU pipes , two AGU pipes and four FP pipes. ALU is short for Arithmetic Logic Unit, AGU is short for Address Generation Unit and FP is short for Floating Point. The four ALU pipes in this context represent the core’s integer pipeline and the four FP pipes represent the floating point pipeline inside the core’s Floating Point Unit. The AGU’s work in tandem with the integer front-end to facilitate communication between the ALUs and a II-read, I-write L1 cache according to an AMD engineer’s linkedin profile that Mr. Waldhauer has spotted.

If we create a diagram of the core’s high-level design based on the Integer and Floating Point pipes mentioned in the patch then we get something that looks like this :



For a better perspective we put Zen side to side with AMD’s steamroller, as the company has not published a block diagram for Excavator unfortunately. However according to what AMD revealed at this past Hot Chips, Excavator should have a very similar high-level layout to Steamroller. A just quick note to refresh everyone’s memory, Steamroller is the CPU core that AMD has introduced with its 7000 series Kaveri and Godavari APUs.



The first thing that is easily discernible is that there is only one integer cluster in a Zen core rather than two like there is in a Steamroller module. These two integer clusters in Steamroller are what forms the two separate CPU cores / threads in each module. Zen takes on a more traditional AMD CPU layout resembling that of Phenom and Athlon K series cores. With a single Integer cluster and one equally large floating point unit.

Zen forgoes the CMT design of the bulldozer family we Zen should have a single fetch and a single decode unit in the front end, as opposed to the double decoders that were introduced with Steamroller. Comparing both floating point units, with four FP pipes Zen’s floating point is effectively twice as wide as that of Steamroller.



Interestingly, the two 128-bit FMAC units in the Bulldozer family can process one 128-bit SIMD instruction per cycle each ot fuse together to process a single 256-bit AVX instruction per cycle.



If this capability to fuse and process larger instructions is carried over to Zen it would enable the two 256-bit FMAC units – 4 128-bit pipes – to fuse and process 512bit AVX instructions. Which would make the core compatible with Intel’s AVX512 instruction set extension. Which is currently only supported by Intel’s Knight’s Landing Xeon Phi microarchitecture.

The wider floating point unit also means that Zen will be able to process less complex instructions at double the rate of Steamroller A massive boost in floating point performance, an area where AMD had historically excelled in with Phenom II and prior CPUs.

There was also one particularly important improvement with Zen that Mr. Waldhauer has managed to spot in a number of patents filed by AMD CPU engineers working on Zen.

A lot of the new functionality has been filed for patenting. For example there was a mention of checkpointing, which is good for quick reversion of mispredicted branches and other reasons for restarting the pipelines. Some patents suggest, that Zen might use some slightly modified Excavator branch prediction.

The branch misprediction penalty on the Bulldozer family of cores was a particularly significant one due to the deep piped nature of the microarchitecture. Intel’s Sandy Bridge, which was introduced to the market at the same time as Bulldozer, had an equally deep pipeline. However with Sandy Bridge Intel introduced a micro-op cache which significantly contributed to reducing the performance penalty of mispredicting a branch. Zen should be AMD’s first CPU core which would see the introduction of a technology that might not be similar to the solution on Sandy Bridge but is still focused solely on reducing branch misprediction penalties.

In summary, compared to Bulldozer family cores, Zen has double the floating point pipes as well as a better way of handling mispredicted branches, coupled with a more streamlined front-end as well as faster and more efficient cache sub-systems. All of these combined have undoubtedly contributed to the massive 40% IPC improvement that AMD has announced back in May.

Source: http://wccftech.com/amd-zen-cpu-core-microarchitecture-detailed/2/
post #32 of 758
they should stop comparing this to skylake in terms of IPC, because if it does match, it wont end with us having a good option to choose from.
look at Fury series, just because Fury X had slightly matched and sometimes outperformed GTX980Ti in higher resolutions they've put a $650 price tag on it.

now what does this have to do with Zen? if IPC were to match haswell or skylake, then do expect Zen 4core to be priced at $250, and Zen 8core to be priced at $600~$1000.
i mean, look at intel's 8core at $1000, if Zen were to be on-par with it, obviously AMD would put it with a price tag at the same bracket.
Edited by epic1337 - 10/4/15 at 10:01pm
post #33 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post

they should stop comparing this to skylake in terms of IPC, because if it does match, it wont end with us having a good option to choose from.
look at Fury series, just because Fury X had slightly matched and sometimes outperformed GTX980Ti in higher resolutions they've put a $650 price tag on it.

now what does this have to do with Zen? if IPC were to match haswell or skylake, then do expect Zen 4core to be priced at $250, and Zen 8core to be priced at $600~$1000.
i mean, look at intel's 8core at $1000, if Zen were to be on-par with it, obviously AMD would put it with a price tag at the same bracket.

Lisa Su has already publicly said that they can no longer be just the low-cost lower-performance competitor, but rather one that competes on performance at a given price point. That has already set the stage for higher price points, and we saw the first shot of that with Fiji. There shouldn't be any surprises about this going forward, AMD has been very clear about that.

You can criticize the strategy all you want, but the cost for AMD is going up. What we need (and what AMD is aiming for), is for performance to match that higher price. Only then would we see the Nvidias and Intels actually begin to compete, and prices fall for the entire industry, instead of AMD being some low-rent VIA option for po' folks while everyone else gets fleeced.
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post #34 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by infranoia View Post

Lisa Su has already publicly said that they can no longer be just the low-cost lower-performance competitor, but rather one that competes on performance at a given price point. That has already set the stage for higher price points, and we saw the first shot of that with Fiji. There shouldn't be any surprises about this going forward, AMD has been very clear about that.

You can criticize the strategy all you want, but the cost for AMD is going up. What we need (and what AMD is aiming for), is for performance to match that higher price. Only then would we see the Nvidias and Intels actually begin to compete, and prices fall for the entire industry, instead of AMD being some low-rent VIA option for po' folks while everyone else gets fleeced.

While this might be true, people don't want the second best if they are paying the prices for the best. Meaning even if Zen can compete with Kaby Lake, or Skylake-E they cannot charge those prices for them because people will just go for the best anyway (unless of course you are an avid AMD fan).

So while they might not want to be viewed as the cost to performance competitor any longer they still have to lower their prices to compete properly. If someone can get an 8 Core Zen processor for $200 less than an 8 Core Intel processor. That makes sense to do especially if the performance differences are 10%. However, if they attempt to charge the same price as Intel they will only be marketing to AMD fans. They won't get Intel users to switch because an Intel user will just say, "Well I might as well buy the Intel 8 Core because it is 10% faster and costs the same."
post #35 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by infranoia View Post

Lisa Su has already publicly said that they can no longer be just the low-cost lower-performance competitor, but rather one that competes on performance at a given price point. That has already set the stage for higher price points, and we saw the first shot of that with Fiji. There shouldn't be any surprises about this going forward, AMD has been very clear about that.

You can criticize the strategy all you want, but the cost for AMD is going up. What we need (and what AMD is aiming for), is for performance to match that higher price. Only then would we see the Nvidias and Intels actually begin to compete, and prices fall for the entire industry, instead of AMD being some low-rent VIA option for po' folks while everyone else gets fleeced.

and thats why its better for us if AMD slowly catches up, if Zen is comparable to Sandy Bridge or Ivy Bridge in terms of IPC, the 8core Zen would be just about in between intel's 6core and 8core skylake in terms of raw performance.
this means we can expect 8core Zen to be priced much closer to 6core skylake, or around $400~$500, while their 6core Zen would be at the $200~$300 directly competing against intel's mainstream line.

this isn't a bad thing for us, Sandy Bridge level IPC is far from being slow, yes it can slightly bottleneck games that are highly dependent to single-thread performance, but we'd still get a far better deal than intel's offering.
or simply put, if you were to be given a choice between a 6core sandy bridge and a 4core skylake, the 6core sandy bridge is a better deal specially when its at the same price, even if its considerably slower in single-thread performance.
Edited by epic1337 - 10/4/15 at 10:54pm
post #36 of 758
I think Zen has potential. If they can release it within the next year otherwise they may be too late.. although intel are only doing 5% performance increases now oneeyedsmiley02.pnglachen.gif so maybe they will still be in contention thumb.gif
   
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post #37 of 758
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiG StroOnZ View Post

While this might be true, people don't want the second best if they are paying the prices for the best. Meaning even if Zen can compete with Kaby Lake, or Skylake-E they cannot charge those prices for them because people will just go for the best anyway (unless of course you are an avid AMD fan).

So while they might not want to be viewed as the cost to performance competitor any longer they still have to lower their prices to compete properly. If someone can get an 8 Core Zen processor for $200 less than an 8 Core Intel processor. That makes sense to do especially if the performance differences are 10%. However, if they attempt to charge the same price as Intel they will only be marketing to AMD fans. They won't get Intel users to switch because an Intel user will just say, "Well I might as well buy the Intel 8 Core because it is 10% faster and costs the same."
for the same price/performance I still gonna Intel.

AMD need to offer extra 15% performance for me to switch sides.
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post #38 of 758
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clocknut View Post

for the same price/performance I still gonna Intel.

AMD need to offer extra 15% performance for me to switch sides.

I severely doubt they will be able to provide 15% better performance, however 15% less performance but for hundreds of dollars cheaper might make people switch sides.

Like imagine an AMD Zen 8 Core with IPC of Haswell-E or Ivy-E for $600 competing against a Skylake-E 8 Core for $1000.

That's quite a competitive product.
post #39 of 758
The good old days are gone when a good chip can be priced in the mid range. When Conroe came out, manufacturing cost was not as high as today. Consequently, they could price it as they wanted and still beat FX-52/FX-69 tongue.gif. Truth be told, a good performing ZEN will be expensive and this will not bode well for those who used to buy AMD for 'budget' builds. I am also sure ZEN motherboards will increase in price due to the new 'we won't be the cheap solution anymore' strategy Lisa Su is promoting.
 
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post #40 of 758
Eh, each performance level of tech gadgets should be going up in price by about %5-10 per year because of inflation. People who compare prices now to prices 10 years ago need to learn about economics.

A CPU in the same performance category as a $100 CPU from 10 years ago should be in the $160-250 price bracket. As this is not true, its obvious that cost per CPU has come down quite a bit just by virtue of the price tiers staying fairly consistent.
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